Women in the BSA

[Adrianvs]

"Your approach to philosophy is not the same approach of the ancients. They quoted their ancient literature and wisdom sayings of their "primitive" religion to prove points. Truth is truth."

 

Socrates engaged in discussions. Yes, he occastionally quoted some poet, but it was only in conformity with normal Greek discourse. The quotes are part of Greek culture and known to the fellow speakers. It would be akin to you quoting "The Simpsons" or "Seinfeld," not ancient Greek authors. Furthermore, the quotes are very seldom made in Socratic discussions. Socrates does not regurgitate dozens of quotes; he uses dialogue and dialectic. I am merely suggesting that you use your own words to bring these issues to light. Socrates was not content to recite Homer for hours on end and expect his listeners to nod in agreement. That is what the Sophists and orators did. Instead, he engaged his listeners and challenged their perceptions. I think that you have good ideas and good understanding. That is being blocked from our perception by overwhelming block-quoting and dramatic appeals. Don't be Gorgias. Be Socrates.

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Wheeler, this may come as a shock to you, but I have no intention of ever reading much of anything you have suggested. To me following this forum is an avocation, not my vocation. As a Venture Crew Adult Advisor, District Advancement Chair, Assistant District Commisioner-Venturing and Commitee member of the troop my son and I serve I really don't see myself ploping down to read when I could be making a second Capote, (thanks for the encouragement Le Voy)leather breeches or charting the age at which our District scouts are making Eagle.

 

You may have made the choice a long time ago to be a hermit in a sea of humanity. I am glad it works for you. If I find I want to read for pleasure, I may just pick up my son's latest edition of Boy's Life and see if I know the punch line in the Think and Grin page and catch up on how ol' PeeWee Harris and his pal Wesley are doing.

 

I come to these pages for enlightenment on the scouting program and to share my opinions and offer help if I am able. If you expect me to add in your philosophical assigments, well lets just say in the vernacular, "ain't gonna happen"

 

The leader of the movement I serve called on women to be scoutmasters. I am secure enough in my masculinity to work with women as equals and as superiors. Females don't scare me (well Outdoor Thinker and her comrades did a few years ago, but I am over that now)

 

Anyway, I have an Eagle Board of Review to get ready for, catch you later

 

 

 

[scoutmom]

OGE, you da man! Thank you.

[red feather]

Wheeler, I thank you for raising your true 'flag'. Puts your posts into proper context.

 

May be my parents training, military experiences or life training (read as school of hard knocks), but I do not care if a person is male, female, brown, red, black,white, green or polkadot(sp?), as long as they are good at what they do or have knowledge that is beneficial to the scouts that I am lucky to be working with.

 

Personal opinion, Wheeler try a shorter horse.

 

yis

[Fat Old Guy]

" I do not care if a person is male, female, "

 

Must have made dating interesting.

[WHEELER]

"Puberty rituals are mainly an enactment of the psychological seperation that the boy must achieve from his mother. The three stages that van Gennep identified, seperation, transition, and incorporation are visible in these ceremonies. Among the Australian Kurnai, the pattern of seperation is to make a momentous change in the boy's life; the past is to be cut off from him by a gulf that he can never repass. His connection with his mother as her child is broken off, and he becomes henceforth attached to the men." The initiate is often considered dead. he is often whipped and mutilated to remove him from ordinary society,and van Gennep understands the Jewish rite of circumcision in this context. The Jewish boy is set apart from Gentiles and women by a mutilation that is also a seperation of the flesh from the body. Only after this separation can he join the community of Israel."

 

Pg 48-49 of the Church Impotent.

 

Male identity must be established in boys. All older primitive cultures saw the need for this. They OBSERVED how boys can be destroyed by the feminine influence. Modern man has become weak and blind and encourages effeminancy because it doesn't have to fight for anything anymore.

[mk9750]

FOG,

 

You stole my thunder on perhaps the best line I have ever thought up to use in these forums. But that won't stop me...

 

WHEELER,

 

You must be a real gem on a date!

 

Mark

[EagleInKY]

Mark - LOL! Like THAT would ever happen! (Wheeler on a date, that is).

[FloridaScout]

Hi it appears I haven't dropped off the face of the Earth quite yet, WEELER you seem to read quite a number of books, but I ask you when was the last time you picked up a scout handbook. Really its a good read, you might be able to compare it to Plato.

 

WEELER if you truly wish to help the program and the people that are related to it I ask that you do so in a manner that exemplifies your obvious intelligence.

 

Florida Scout

 

[ASM1]

This thread is discusting at best! Women in Scouting? I have been in Scouting for more than 36 years startng as a Cub Scout. Now I am a SM with 4 children, 2 of my eldest boys are leaders in other troops around the country. My youngest son is working on his Eagle. My wife and I have given our all to Scouting and we are both Woodbadgers Proud and true!

 

I remember my childhood experiences in Scouting and they were not all pleasent. The method was there, but the practice was &*^( up at best. I took what was positive, which was great and forgot the rest and went forward.

 

If it were to ever come that women were to be barred from Boy Scouts, I would rip the uniforms from my sons back and burn our beads! And I would leave the Scouting program with a mission to end it forever. Women must be involed as leaders, SM's ASM's and every aspect of leadership. You leave that, I leave Scouting!

 

ASM1

[Adrianvs]

ASM1,

 

I hope that you would at least let your family members return to the privacy of your own home before you commenced ripping their uniforms off. Would you rip your own uniform shirt off as well? May I suggest doing it Hulk Hogan style in your front lawn? Do you have a growl practiced for when you do righteous ripping?

Tell me more about this mission to end Scouting. Do you have any details planned yet? I don't think that the BSA would ever ban women, of course, but I wonder how you would go about that. Are there any other bad policy decisions that would warrant your RIP, BURN, DESTROY protocol? Does it apply to your troop as well? Would any possible committee decisions spur you to start breaking and/or lighting things on fire during the meeting? Would you find it necessary to shout "SMASH!!!" and/or "BURN!!!" while doing so? What if the BSA or troop corrected its policy before you destroyed it? Would you return to the program or finish the job?

[Fat Old Guy]

"This thread is discusting at best!"

 

Open mindedness at its best.

[Catbird]

I've had some direct experience with this subject in the past two years. I started in Cub Scouts as a Tiger Cub Coach (old name, I know) when my son was a Tiger. Then I remained as Den Leader through Webelos II, was an OWLS trainer for a while, and moved into Boy Scouting, first as the liaison between the troop and the webelos, then advancement chairperson. We have moved a few times and have experienced several different councils/districts/troops through these moves. When we moved to Missouri, from Louisiana, the troop we were interested in for our boys seemed ideal until it was made clear that married couples were not to sleep in the same tent and women were not allowed to camp with the troop unless another woman was there. This was directly from the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair. I noticed that none of the women there were in uniform, only the men. I was told that neither of these things "looked good" for the troop. I was also told that this is what they were taught during training. I didn't ask at the time who's training as I was too blinded by just the idea that I would bring anything into this besides a desire to help the boys, teach them the skills I have learned myself, follow the Scout Law, and enjoy the company of the other leaders as I have in previous troops. At the time I was told, I really couldn't deal with being thrown back into the 1950 ideals. I researched all of the scouting information we have at our home. I contacted the DE and asked about this "policy". I was directed to the Public Relations Director and then on to several other "higher ups" in the District. What I was told was that it is up to the Charter Organization to set the policy as to who can come into the troop and who can't, and what they will be allowed or not allowed to do. BSA's GUIDELINE is that women will be treated equally as leaders. But boy did I learn the difference between a guideline, a policy, and a rule. I asked, specifically, if a Charter Organization can state that only white men with pink hair can run a troop, and was told, clearly, YES. The Charter Organization owns the troop. BSA can only work within the policy set by the Charter Organization (if they choose to set policy). Every belief I had regarding scouting simply tumbled into the dirt. Yes, we did move to a different troop that accepts women but I certainly haven't had it in myself to get as involved as I had been before this. I have a real hard time supporting scouting knowing that it is ok to have this attitude within BSA. I'm very slowly becoming more involved again because my son wants stay involved in the troop. I have continued to be a merit badge counselor as I have for the past several years. But I haven't been able to look at scouting in the same light as before. If men want to do their bonding, let it be done in cub scouts AND at home. Boy scouts is the time to teach working with others, gaining confidence in their own skills, and becoming well rounded, independent young men. I was proud to be a part of BSA and part of me still is. But until we find a way to accept that both men and women are important, that any differences in viewpoints of men and women can mesh together to work on that "well rounded" part of young men. That these boys need to learn to work with and respect all people.

 

I didn't think I would respond to this but I guess the anger is still there. Everybody has their own opinion on this, I know it can be a powder keg. But consider what the boys see when women are not considered "worthy" to be a part of scouting besides the traditional den mother, cookie maker, etc., role. These boys might wind up marrying some day and that woman that they marry could be the breadwinner these days. Let's start by teaching them that it is teamwork that is important, not gender/color/religion.

[Rooster7]

First, I offer my apologies for not reading every word of every post in this thread. This apology should also serve as a disclaimer. It may be that Ive missed something worth reading. Still, in response to Wheeler and to those who reject his thoughts in this thread (this probably applies to quite a few other threads as well) Id like to say: Youre making much ado about nothing!

 

Wheeler - Obviously, you are well read. You also make some good points. But, I have a hard time following you because a) you quote way too many dead people to keep my interest, b) you dont always explain in straight forward language as to why you have chosen a particular quote, and c) your crusade seems to be extremely narrow in focus. Even if I completely agreed with your assessment (i.e., the rapid demise of American manhood), I believe the Gospel (which we both embrace) has a much greater message to impart, which you seem to think is secondary. Also, I think you devalue the BSA program disproportionately considering the unique opportunities it offers young boys.

 

To those who paint Wheeler as some kind of lunatic sexist or some other kind of nut While I dont appreciate Wheelers ability to bore me with quotes and his intellectualizing of the same, I think the reaction of most folks on this board is over the top. I find myself agreeing with many of his thoughts but not necessarily all of his conclusions. The BSA was created specifically for boys because boys have specific needs that need to be fulfilledbecause boys will eventually become men. Logically, the BSA should seek men to fill the adult leadership roles. Men should mentor boys. They have a unique perspective that women cannot offer. Women dont know what it is like to be a boy. Nor can women fully appreciate the needs or demands associated with being a man. Having said all of that, I appreciate the many women who have served in leadership roles within the BSA. I am thankful to them because a) many men have failed to step up and play a part in these boys lives, and b) many women in the BSA understand and appreciate the differences between the sexes. The end result is, the BSA is a pretty good program. Would it be better if more men stepped up, took leadership roles, and mentored the Scouts? I believe the answer is yes. Does that position make you mad? If so, I think you have just as much time on your hands as Wheeler. Its just one opinion.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[WHEELER]

This rant by "catbird" and others that somehow not allowing women in the BSA leads to "hate" is just riduculous. Lord Baden-Powell did not notice this in any of the cultures he visited. Every primitive culture and the Bar Mitzvah were all tuned to the development of men. Even Roman society had a program whereupon the puberty age, the young man was given different clothes to wear.

 

But catbird does hit on the essential point, that the current modality of the Boy Scout program is to acclimate boys to be led by women. This is a dangerous precept. This is socialisty ideology at its finest. No woman is my equal and will not be a leader over me. I refuse to part of anything that puts me under a woman. It is just demeaning and that is exactly the purpose of it. Leadership is Male. Nature teaches this.