Women in the BSA

[scoutingagain]

I think women should be able to serve (and they do) in any leadership capacity within the BSA that they are capable of. I've seen excellent female leadership in many positions and I've seen ...well, less than excellent female leadership. I can say the exact same thing about male leadership within the BSA. I think that the idea all women mother the boys or don't like to camp is just wrong. Our troop comittee is chaired by a woman and she camps with the troop at least once or twice a year. The scoutmaster's mom camps with us at least as often and is one of the troops strongest hikers. Having women on some of the camping trips tends to civilize both the boys and the men that are along.

 

Having stated support for the participation of women as scouters, I would like to also say, I think scouting offers a unique environment for boys and young men to interact with adults, especially male adults. I see nothing wrong with promoting the idea that boys have strong male role models and mentors to work with. I think women can, and do, make a tremendous contribution to scouting. But I think a troop that had mostly female leadership in adult positions would deny boys the opportunity to work with male mentors and strong male role models.

 

SA

[matuawarrior]

Hello Scoutmom,

 

I don't have problems with women in the BSA. I enjoy working with them. Each one of us is different and we bring special positive traits to the campfire.

 

I have a Co-ed Venturing Crew which mostly leans towards the young ladies. I have moms in the Group (Troop-Crew-Pack)Committee. My SPL during Woodbadge is a great lady. Many of the key trainers during WB were ladies.

 

I believe they should be and continue to be leaders in the organization.

 

Matua(This message has been edited by matuawarrior)

[Adrianvs]

Thanks for the link, OGE. I found the reference interesting and will enjoy listening to the other addresses. I really had no idea that BP had ever made such an invite.

 

As for myself, I think that the qualities that make up a good scoutmaster are best expressed in the words of Lord Baden-Powell:

 

"AS a preliminary word of comfort to intending Scoutmasters, I should like to contradict the usual misconception that, to be a successful Scoutmaster, a man must be an Admiral Crichton--a know-all. Not a bit.

He simply has to be a boy-man, that is:--

(1) He must have the boy spirit within him; and must be able to place himself on a right plane with his boys as a first step.

(2) He must realise the needs, outlooks and desires of the different ages of boy life.

(3) He must deal with the individual boy rather than with the mass.

(4) He then needs to promote a corporate spirit among his individuals to gain the best results.

 

With regard to the first point, the Scoutmaster has to be neither schoolmaster nor commanding officer, nor pastor, nor instructor. All that is needed is the capacity to enjoy the out-of-doors, to enter into the boys' ambitions, and to find other men who will give them instruction in the desired directions...

He has got to put himself on the level of the older brother, that is, to see things from the boy's point of view, and to lead and guide and give enthusiasm in the right direction. Like the true older brother he has to realize the traditions of the family and see that they are preserved, even if considerable firmness is required. That is all. The Movement is a jolly fraternity, all the jollier because in the game of Scouting you are doing a big thing for others, you are combating the breeding of selfishness."

 

 

In my opinion, a female scouter can fulfill these requirements. She should do it in the role of an older sister. I think that much of the perceived problem is that the role of mother or "nanny" is often very difficult to put aside for some women. Many men have trouble putting aside a role of "commanding officer" or "schoolmaster." But it is not impossible for either group to make the necessary adjustments. Yes, it is probably hard for some women to relate to boys. I submit that many men, although they once were, have forgotten what it was like too. Instead of being a boy-man at heart, perhaps we should say that the female scouter should be a "tom-boy" at heart. I don't know if this is helpful or not.

 

I do recognize that the role of mother is somewhat more distant from the Scouting program than that of father. I would guess that this is because fathers are, on the whole, much "chummier" with their sons than mothers are. The relationship is just different. Of course there are exceptions, but the trend exists and people pick up on it. Do women have to make different adjustments to be part of an effective scouting program than men do? Yes. Are they any less able to do this? No. I don't think that there should be a bunch of schoolmasters running around camp any more than a bunch of nannys. Are the nannys easier to pick out than the schoolmasters? You bet. The goal, however, is to have dedicated older brothers and sisters with child spirits to help guide the youth in the program.

 

While I find women a welcome part of the scouting program, I must agree with Scoutingagain regarding the importance of an environment of mostly male mentors (in the Boy Scouting program). I think that this creates an important dynamic for a number of reasons, including essential gender-specific modeling. Others are as simple as keeping the boys' interest and serving as a reminder to the females of the nature of the program (just as the presence of females often reminds the males of program goals). So would I try to restrict the activities of a troop with all-female leadership? Of course not. I just don't think it would be the ideal situation. The same holds true for Girl Scouts, although girls are more likely than boys to have adult female mentors outside of scouting (with single parent homes, elementary school teachers, etc).

[WHEELER]

JUST FOUND THIS POST.

 

OPINIONS OPINIONS OPINIONS.

 

There is very little "knowledge" in this whole thread. "I feel this... "I feel that..

 

Sound like a bunch of women.

 

Why don't you read the Communist Manifesto where Karl Marx calls for Feminism?

 

Why don't you people read? Too tough for you?

 

I give you some books for you since you don't have any knowledge whatsoever.

 

The Church Impotent; The Feminization of the Church Leon Podles.

Very scholary and informative of male pyschology

 

Sex Differences, Modern Biology and the Unisex Fallacy by Yves Christian.

 

Leadership is Male.

 

You are what you follow. If you follow Marxism, you are a Marxist. Feminism is the ideology of Marxism!

 

Are you all that decieved?

 

Judases!

 

(This message has been edited by WHEELER)

[evmori]

You are what you follow.

Which makes people who follow you Wheelies?

[Marty_Doyle]

No. "Wheelists".

[scoutingagain]

"Wheelists" study "Wheelism".

 

 

SA

[Sturgen]

Im so sorry for the groups ignorance. I suppose most of us are to busy with work, education, scouting, family, church, etc to sit down and read for 12 hours a day. It really is shameful, I personally am beating myself with a coup stick as I type to punish myself for not dedicating my life to books written by dead guys. I must halt all of my attempts to become a better human being and become a quote-a-matic 3000. Must memorize Plato. Must memorize Socrates.

[WHEELER]

The first three principles of leadership is:

 

Know yourself

Know your job

Set the example.

 

Tell me Do you know your job? Without knowledge how do you know you are not really doing harm? What studies has the BSA done and what scientific knowledge does it educate the leaders here on the "training of boys to men"?

 

Obviously, you do not know. Ignorance kills. Do I follow somebody, who doesn't know what he is doing?

 

Set the example. How important is this for a boy? What example is being set? No woman can set the example of what it means to be a man. No woman has what it takes to do that.

 

This is why men are so apathetic and are turning to escapism, women are taking over everywhere.

 

Churches that have women soon lose the men. What man wants to be led by a woman? You are who you follow. Dictated to by a woman. How can a woman sharpen a man into being a man? Impossible. You are who you imitate.

 

It is clear that the Boy Scouts of America does not KNOW its job and its importance.

 

This is the shining example of the incompetance. What is incompetance? Ignorance of knowledge.

 

A scout is loyal. Loyal to what? nothing anymore.

 

All the tribal societies that Baden Powell saw had some training for boys that modern society has lost. He restored that mission with the Boy Scout program.

 

No, we let women who covet being men instead of being women, join to become psuedo males. Covet is envy. Envy is hate. Women always covet the man's position. It is called penis-envy. This modality is evident in Feminism where the female is going to usurp the position of the male and the male retreats into childishness, and effeminancy. Just like Adam. Feminism is the embodiment of that hate.

 

Thou shalt not covet.

 

For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. NEVERTHELESS THROUGH ENVY OF THE DEVIL CAME DEATH INTO THE WORLD: AND THEY THAT ARE OF HIS SIDE DO FIND IT. Wisdom Septuagint 2.23-24

 

The devil coveted. Women covet the place of man. Death follows.

 

 

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Wheeler, I am not sure if you saw this link, its in this thread

 

http://www.chsscout.net/rescenter/video/index.shtml#section4

 

choose "Address to Scoutmasters and Commissioners"

 

its a voice recording of B-P, along about the 1:59 minute mark he clearly calls for young men and young women to be scoutmasters. How do you reconcile your views about women vesus that of Boy Scouts' founder, could B-P have been wrong?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Adrianvs]

Wheeler,

 

As you probably know, I feel that all life, including the Scouting program, should be informed by philosophy. I am a student of Plato and Aristotle, among other classic writers, and have written a considerable amount on their writings and ideas. As such, I find the introduction of classical thought to the Scouting community to be a most beneficial move. I have made it myself, in somewhat more subtle ways.

On the issues of gender, I am not of the "unisexist" camp. I accept different trends of behavior and roles for men and women. Some may consider me "conservative" or even "backwards" on this point. I agree with you on many points regarding the importance of classic thought and virtue. I do, however, take objection to the notion that some virtue or property such as courage or leadership is entirely male (or female). Joan of Arc is a true woman, just as Francis of Assisi is a true man. I have a feeling that you would object to both of them as malformed individuals.

I also noticed that you make a mistake common to many philosophers. While a theologian may quote Scripture as an authority in itself, a student of philosophy must quote a philosophical thinker merely as a means of conveying the argument at hand. Plato may be an authority, but he is not an infallible one to any person here. In fact, I know of no such person alive today (academic or otherwise) who accepts all that Plato taught. (That entire departments are funded for the sole purpose of determining what Plato taught is another matter all together.) The point is that Plato or Aristotle or Epicureus or Epictitus or Sophocles or Homer or any other Greek writer cannot be used to make short dogmatic prounouncements. It is a mistake to refer to those who seemingly disagree with a short quote of Plato as "completely ignorant." You yourself disagree with much of Plato's teaching. You refer to Marxism as a false and destructive political philosophy. I believe that you are right on this point, but you wouldn't accept Plato's political philosophy as any less false or destructive. His calls for complete class division, collective raising of children with anonymous parentage, and the decidedly "effeminate" nature of the Guardian class of philosopher rulers would all be rejected by you most vehemently. In addition, Plato states that women are as suited as men to compose the Guardian class. You state that "leadership is male." Are you in complete ignorance or is Plato? Perhaps we can have disagreements on points without either side being completely ignorant or knowing. Remember, Aristotle rejects the Stoic notion of knowledge and virtue as being competely present or absent. Instead, he teaches that virtue and knowledge are acquired through practice and action and attained progessively by the individual, much like a skill or trade. I'm not quoting Aristotle as an authority, of course. I'm merely inviting you read the work yourself and see if the arguments hold. That's what philosophy is all about. The works of Plato weren't recorded as a series of short quotes to assert some point; they are dialogues in which correct ideas win out over false ones throught the strength of their arguments. That is philosophy. Until you can use that method you are not a philosopher at all. At best, you are a "philosophy-ologist."

 

 

Or a fortune cookie writer.

[Bob White]

Friends,

We have been set-up. Like sheep to the shearing. Wheeler is a fake. No one can possibly be this starved for human contact as to join a forum to talk with people you don't know, about a topic you don't know, in a way calculated to repulse. This is not a philosopher, this is an unhappy, unproductive, anti-social loner with a couple books of quotes on hand but nothing to say.

 

So everyone put your cursor on the squelch button and we can let him do what he enjoys the most, sit in solitude contemplating his navel. One..two....three....click

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Just checking in Wheeler, I want to know if you have listened to B-P invite women to be scoutmasters yet. Have you done so and are compiling a killer rebuttal or do you think I will forget and leave it alone? You havent cornered the market on compulsive behavior,yet, but you come closer to it than nelson and bunker hunt did when they tried to corner the silver market

[Fat Old Guy]

"Having women on some of the camping trips tends to civilize both the boys and the men that are along."

 

That's the whole problem with wimmin folk in general. They always wants to civilize us men folk. First it is the curtains on the windows, old sheets isn't good e'nuf. Next they wants to git the 'frigerator out'en the living room so's we have to walk all the ways to the kitchen to get a beer when the game is on. Oh yeah, almost fergot, they wants, not just sheets on the bed but fancy sheets with flowers on them and MATCHING towels. When ya got wimmen in the house, ya can't let Ol' Blue lick the plates clean and put them up in the cupboard. Nope, you got to warsh them with soap and wipe them dry.

 

Civilization, who needs it?

 

(the above was only partially tongue-in-cheek)

[WHEELER]

To Old Grey Eagle:

 

I have read in a post in the Scout History section or somewhere in this thread about BP making those comments. I am at a School Library and do not have audio but I am aware of those comments.

 

What I ask the community to do is to read four books.

 

The Communist Manifesto which opposes the teaching of Scripture. Karl Marx promotes equality and therefore, feminism. St. Paul, as I have quoted in the post "The Training of Boys to be Men" states the opposite. The references to feminism in the Communist Manifesto points to a fact that it is a part of Marxist sociology.

 

The next two are "The Church Impotent" and "Sex Differences". They both point to where boys are repelled by the feminine.

 

Truth does not contradict truth. BP was not perfect but his program can be perfected. "To do our best" is a mentality of constant improvement. Do you recognize that women and their influence are quite dangerous to manhood and manliness in boys?

 

The next book is "Leadership is Male". It is strictly a Christian work.

 

Before we talk any further on this subject and yell at one another why don't we read things first. I have read these books. If you have read something with this regard inform me and I will do some reading. BP like Plato was corrected by Aristotle and both were corrected by Christianity, can be corrected thru scientific and more classical studies.

 

Next to Bob White, I saw your post in this thread where you stated that the BSA is not about training boys to men. You assault me having anything to say because I have not participated in this program but you have participated and yet you bear false witness or you are just plain ignorant so your premise about me falls flat on its face.

 

And to Adrianvs:

 

There are two scriptures. There are two pillars of truth. Consistency is the criteria of truth and I am showing parallels between the two.

 

Your approach to philosophy is not the same approach of the ancients. They quoted their ancient literature and wisdom sayings of their "primitive" religion to prove points. Truth is truth.

 

(This message has been edited by WHEELER)