Eagle Bonus

[sst3rd]

I need input, and I don't mind sticking my neck out to be chopped off, so here goes.

Our Troop has as many traditions as other Troops. We've been around for 40 years. Some traditions come and go. We have a steady stream of Eagles, but sometimes they appear to group themselves. Our last Eagle (also in the OA), was about a year ago. His parents were on the Committee. As soon as his ceremony was over with, he quit. One fellow Scout goes to his school and asked why he never came back. He said that he was burn't out. His mother stayed active for a while and we appreciated that. She too said that her son was simply burn't out on Scouts.

This board talks about how you can't add or subtract from the requirements, but I can assure you, this young man met his requirements and no more. He was not burn't out.

It's been almost a year, and his mother stoped by a meeting, and asked our CC where her son's flag was, and why he hadn't received the Board of Supervisor's (county) proclamation? Our CC explained that these items were bonuses to the Eagle award, and we really no longer had the connection to the U. S. Capitol flags, etc.. And that since he quit Scouts directly after his ceremony, we felt he didn't deserve our extra efforts for these recognitions. We did give her the option of getting these items herself, there's nothing to stop her. This Scout went on a Troop trip with us this past April. Frankly if I had known, he would not have been allowed to come. It's one of the purely fun trips. His hasn't given to the Troop, he doesn't deserve the privledge. It did, however, give me the opportunity to talk with him about all of this stuff, so there is no way he didn't know his situation. Yet, his mother comes to his defense to demand a flag and the Board's proclamation. He tried to come on our annual August trip that includes our OA Call-Out, I didn't allow it (SM).

My take is that our adult leaders are there to support the "active" Scouts, and don't need to worry about this Eagle who quit. And yes, as our current 4 Life Scouts make their decisions to earn the rank of Eagle or not, we're going to try to re-establish our connection to those flags and make sure they get their county proclamations. They will stay involved with their Troop. This other Scout chose not to. Again, he made the choice.

So, opinions please. How do you do it?

 

 

sst3rd

[Fat Old Guy]

There are those for whom you want to extend yourself and those that you'd rather they vanish.

 

If your connection is gone, then your really don't need to extend yourself for a vanished Scout. However, if he's still registered, you shouldn't exclude him from activities unless the troop has an established policy that you have to do X, Y, and Z before you can do W. Also that policy needs to come from the PLC and not the SM, after all they in charge an you are only there to train them.

 

 

[saltheart]

Actually, I see nothing wrong with your reasoning. The fact that he quit immediately upon receiving his Eagle speaks volumes about his own real commitment. Been there, done that. Attend to those Scouts who still belong and want to be there. As for the comment that, "if he's still registered, you shouldn't exclude him"...baloney. He walked...on his own...his choice. It seems that no one ousted him from the troop. No one forced him out. The fact that he still finds some interest only in those things that he considers 'fun', like your April trip, says that he's become somewhat selective in his interest in Scouting. Say goodbye. If his desires lead him to wanting back in...discuss it with him then as all or nothing. Your thoughts and instincts in this matter agree with mine.

 

Now, to the flip side of the coin. Being burn't out.

 

In our own little part of the country here, it's not all that uncommon to be faced with the 'burn't out' boy. Not so much burn't out on Scouting, but rather all the things that he has gotten involved with, and his parents have allowed him to become involved with. On top of the required things in a boys life...school, family, and hopefully church..., there's a plethora of opportunites that face challenge the boy's sense of commitment, reality, and desire. For instance, sports. Often, we see a boy who seems well rounded and committed to Scouting, only to realize that he's gotten himself spread too thin between his required life, his Scouting, and his football, basketball, soccer, hockey, track, baseball, school clubs, and friends. That's a tall order for any kid to fill. We see many parents who don't teach their kids a little bit about judicious decision making when getting involved in extra-cirricular activities. They want it all, and attempt it all. Usual result? Burning out, and not just in one or two areas. Point is, we deal with kids who have over-booked personal calendars. I've yet to meet a boy who got burn't out on Scouts and Scouts alone.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"As for the comment that, "if he's still registered, you shouldn't exclude him"...baloney."

 

And now instead of thinking about coming back, he says, "I was thinking about going back to Scouting but Mr. Saltheart says I can't do anything." Good-bye lost Scout.

[NeilLup]

To add to the comments of Saltheart, a recent article in my college's alumni magazine said that the average applicant to the college listed EIGHT activities during high school. Scouts would be considered one. Being an Eagle Scout might be considered two. So if a boy spent a great deal of his time on Scouting and didn't have a lot of activities, he would be far behind other boys and girls who were applying in this area.

 

Note that this was the average applicant, not the average accepted applicant. So the average accepted applicant had more. The admissions director said that today's youth were extremely skilled at multi-tasking and at getting all these things done.

 

So I'll bet the boy is burn't out. Not just with Scouting, but with all the activities he has to do. And in his mandatory multi-tasking (probably parentally directed), he (or his parent(s)) concluded that he had gotten the gold stars for Scouting, no more gold stars there to be earned so on to other things.

 

With sincere respect, I understand the frustration you feel, particularly with the mother, but I am not sure the proper action was to deny the boy the prerogative to come on the campouts. Presumably, you do those campouts because they, too further the aims and methods of Scouting. I believe that there was no suggestion of improper behavior or improper actions by him, just less activity after getting the Eagle than you would expect and hope for. Do you really think that you can better influence this boy more by refusing to let him come than by allowing him the chance to have some continuing affiliation with the Troop. Now, you have drawn a line in the sand and made it clear that if he does want to come back, he has to do so with his tail between his legs and head down.

 

Also, with sincere respect, you have said that he isn't trustworthy, isn't loyal, etc. He has said that he is burn't out. His mother seconded that. You may believe that his level of effort didn't burn him out, but in your actions, you are stating that you believe he isn't telling the truth.

 

I fear that you may have greatly increased the chance that he won't return and even that, as an adult, he will have negative feelings about Scouting that an Eagle Scout shouldn't have.

 

I apologize if this is monday morning quarterbacking. I wasn't there and I do know the frustration you must have felt.

[Fat Old Guy]

Eight activities or more. That's a bunch. Back in the stone ages, I was involved in five activites (if my memory is working) but few occurred at the same time. All the ones with pressure were had definite starts and stops which left me with much of the year to enjoy life.

 

Now, I look at kids and I'm amazed that they all don't go postal. The high school drama club put on a musical last spring and they had started rehersals the summer before. Basketball and soccer players live that sport year round, always preparing for a tournement. The pros get some time off but not 15 year olds.

 

Scouting is designed to be a fun activity but it has become a high pressure activity like basketball and drama club. Instead of Eagle being the result of being active in Scouts for an extended period, it has become the goal of a high intensity campaign. Get in, get the Eagle, get out and find a new activity for the resume.

[Rooster7]

I could go either way with this discussion. It's a little difficult to make a judgment without being there - to see the circumstances of this story as it unfolds and to get to know the boy as he reveals himself to be. Having made the appropriate disclaimer, here's some questions to think about:

 

1) Ignoring the fact that he quit after his Eagle ceremony, how would you judge this boy's character? Was he an otherwise decent kid?

 

2) Assuming he's registered and there are no pre-existing ground rules for attending trips, by what premise do you deny him an opportunity to attend a Troop trip? Are you making an arbitrary judgment, and justifying it because you have the presumed authority to do so as the SM?

 

3) Isn't it our job to encourage boys to stay in Scouts, even if a boy hasn't been the model Scout? Has his past behavior been so bad that you feel prompted to ignore the aforementioned, and in fact strive for the opposite effect? If so, was this ever brought to the committee's attention?

 

4) If you normally, as a matter of tradition, give certain things (proclamations, flags, etc.) to an Eagle scout, but have decided not to for a particular boy for the reasons you stated - shouldn't you (or perhaps you did) advise the said boy that this will be one consequence of his decision to quit (among others) and give him the opportunity to reconsider?

 

5) Does your stance with this boy have anything to do with his mother?

 

6) Is there a chance - that if you give him a chance (let him attend an outing), hell regain his interest in Scouting?

 

I ask the above questions, because as a father of three boys, my first instinct is to think of my kids and the kinds of mistakes that they have made and/or are still capable of making. I'd like to think that their Scoutmaster would consider their youthful indiscretions as being just that before passing judgment on them and discarding any attempt to bring them back in line. If the kid in question has been a constant thorn in yours and the troop's backside, then I can see the wisdom in your post. If he's been an otherwise good kid (the Eagle rank usually means something positive exists within his being), then I'd hope you'd give him the benefit of the doubt (regardless of what you feel about his reasoning of being "burnt out") and encourage him to come back to Scouting. In other words, I wouldn't send him away simply because he was not active for a period of time. But as I already noted, I'm not there to experience what you've experienced - You know best. I just hope you're keeping an open mind and heart - within reason.

 

Twenty years from now, are you going to be saying to yourself Man, Im glad that kid left the troop and spared us his presence! or Man, I should of given that kid a little more slack and taken the opportunity to teach him more! Im not saying I know the right answer but, I think you do.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[LauraT7]

Burnout is a tough issue - what is 'too much' for one kid might not be 'enough' for another....

 

In 6th grade, my son was being 'burned out' by school alone. he was not in much else - confirmation, a weekly visit with his Dad and every other weekend at their house - which was extremely stressfull - but we had no control over that at the time.

 

But jr high was a real trial for him, and scouting, (badgework, rank advancements) at that point, just seemed like more schoolwork. so we made an agreement - i would not ask him to do ANYTHING in scouting, except to go on some of the trips he liked and show up at regular meetings - and in a year, after 6th grade was over, we would re- evaluate. The agreement also included that if he DID decide to quit Scouts - that he would choose another extra-curricular activity - he could not just sit home and watch TV and play video games...

 

He did not advance at all that year - he did CHOOSE to go to a merit badge college that met 3 saturdays that spring, and he earned 4 badges - which surprised me. But most of the troop was going, and he wanted to be with his friends, the badges were incidental - and FUN.

 

At the end of the year, he decided to stay on - he goes in spurts - sometimes interested in advancement & badges, and sometimes not. But he's happy and ENJOYS his time in scouting. He might make Eagle, and he might not - I don't think he even realizes the things he has learned and how he has matured because of scouting - Scouting has just become a part of who he IS. and isn't that the whole point?

 

There will always be those who NEVER 'get' Scouting - those who want the accolades and awards so they can 'prove' what they have accomplished. so they can make one more 'mark' on their ladder to 'success'. Anyone likes to be recognised & rewarded for the work they have done, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Being an "Eagle" is not just skills learned and a checklist of duties and projects - it's about the CHARACTER created while getting there. and character, as a slippery intangible, is difficult to define and test - especially to those who don't HAVE much 'character'!

 

Getting the 'Eagle' shows that you followed the directions and can work on a goal : that you met the minimum standards - much like getting a college degree. But what you did to get there and what you do with it afterwards, shows what kind of person you REALLY are. On the face of it, your Diploma doesn't say whether you were top of your class or barely passed - The 'extras' that people often get along with their Eagle rank are not guaranteed and differ from troop, district, council and state. So no one is 'entitled' to anything extra - those are given from the heart - and must be EARNED by heart and character.

 

As for his participation - I would not push too hard, nor 'punish' him for lack of leadership or participation. I would require that anyone going on a trip be there for the planning, though - simple sense - everyone must carry their own weight. You may see him go through a phase of disinterest and make a comeback - he can always work on Eagle palms, or help with other's eagle projects - or he may just want to 'hang out' with his friends - nothing wrong with that, either. but i would not want to be the one to cut that possible tie - if he's under 18, he still has a chance to be a REAL 'Eagle' someday.

 

PS -

 

i never heard of Eagles getting a 'flag' - is this something that is commonly done? is it from the US government, State office or president's office or what? I'd be interested in finding out and following up on it for one of our recent Eagles, and for the four we have currently working ont their projects. sounds like a nice touch...

 

could you e-mail me any info/ contacts you have on how to do this?

 

tlaurat7@hotmail.com

 

Laura

[hops_scout]

Eight activities...

Baseball

Basketball

Football

volunteering

SHOW

Boy Scouts

Venture Crew

school

Well I there's eight FOG. Just for you.

[Bob White]

sst3rd,

Did you get my private message? Do you see the difference in attitude and approach?

Bob White

[Eamonn]

Bob White

I would like to hear your take on this.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

Eamonn,

i may post later. In the mean time I have private messaged you with my take on this string. I may post later after I see how a few others feel.

[sst3rd]

Bob,

 

No, I didn't receive your E-mail. I delete everything that I am not familiar with. Sorry.

 

Rooster7

 

1) Yes, he is a decent kid.

2) There are no ground rules, just common since. If he doen't regularly attend the meetings, he has no idea what the camping trip is about or trying to accomplish. I will not allow Scouts to pick and choose their activities. Period. He's registered, but hasn't paid his dues for almost a year. The last couple of years he was a PL, SPL, and then I asked him to take an assignment as a JASM. We discussed and agreed upon his duties right after he received his Eagle, but he still quit. I will not allow him to set "that" type of an example.

3) His past behavior is fine. He simply quit. The Committee was and is aware of the situation and they agree. Sets the wrong example particularly coming from a former SPL, Eagle, and OA member.

4) I've kept in touch with this Eagle, as he works at a local grocery store. I've always encouraged him to come back. Early on I mentioned the County Award if he came back, but I also understood that he might be too busy. No fuss on my part.

5) His mother (and father) have long been a plus to our program. No problems at all, until she planned her son's Eagle Ceremony on the same weekend as a very inportant OA Ordeal that she knows our Troop OA members always attend. I admit, that bothered me. Several of us traveled to and from (an hour)the OA function to present her son his Eagle Ceremony.

6) He's not interested. If he is allowed to come and go as he pleases, he still will not become involved with the Troop meetings. If he's allowed to attend as he pleases, our youth leaders will assume it's alright to do the same. It will not be allowed.

 

Folks. Thanks so much for your thoughts. He's a good young man and Eagle. We're very proud of him except that he's not giving back to his own Troop. As far as he may have a bad taste in his mouth for Scouting in the future, that's self inflicted. He's a senior, and will graduate next June, as 4 more of his fellow Scouts (and possible Eagles). He keeps in touch through them, and I talk with him fairly often at the grocery store. He is an incredible student, so I know a lot of time is spent there. If he starts coming to the meetings and helps our Scouts, he can go on the next trip. He knows this. No slackers allowed. You're part of the solution, or part of the problem. We need youth leaders who will lead. You can't lead if you're not there.

 

sst3rd

[Bob White]

Check again sst3rd.

[evmori]

I think this happens more than we think. Kids earn their Eagle & quit. Some feel they can't get any better than Eagle. And in some ways, they are correct! Some are burnt out. I don't think its Scouting burnout just burnout from so many activities that when they earn their Eagle they feel it's over & now there is one less activity to participate in. Hopefully, these Eagles will come back to Scouting in the future & share what they have learned with another generation of Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10