The Importance of Uniforming

[Beavah]

Yah, agree completely with what Eagledad said.

 

At da risk of hijacking the thread, let me briefly respond to BSA24.

 

I was raised poor. I became wealthy through choices I made. I had no advantages other than I chose good decisions over poor ones.

 

Now I don't know yeh, mate, but if I were to guess, I would guess that you were raised with little money, not that you were raised poor. There's a difference.

 

To be raised poor is to be raised in a home with a single parent who doesn't care, where nobody ever reads to you, where adults come and go but yeh never build connections. Where no adult in your life has any aspirations or provides any example of the sorts of good choices you describe. Where drugs and alcohol are a way of life, where the schools house only the teachers and administrators who are so poor at their jobs that they can't get a position elsewhere, and they rotate around in a perpetual dance of the lemons.

 

Some of the richest families I know have little money. And, to be honest, in some of the wealthiest families I know da children live in poverty.

 

Don't mix the two up, eh?

 

Real poverty is like psychological depression, eh? It's when yeh can't even manage or grasp the steps that yeh need to take to help yourself, because in your entire background yeh have had no experience with 'em and your habits are well set. It can be hard for a person who is not depressed to understand those who are, the horrible trap that they're in. Da same applies to poverty.

 

A scout is Helpful and Kind. He helps other people at all times. Some problems are just hard, eh? The problem of real poverty is one of those, because it goes so much deeper than lack of money. If yeh still feel a calling to help the poor, don't stop just because yeh outgrew your naive notions and realized the deeper problem. Pray about it and figure out how to change the approach yeh use to help, so that yeh try to address the problem of true poverty. It's a daunting, hard, but worthy task.

 

Beavah

 

[BadenP]

Beavah

 

Well said and I agree with you 100%. Some of the happiest families I have known have had very little material wealth, but a treasure of wealth in the way they lived their lives, having an abundance of friends, pride in their families, and a deeply spiritual outlook on life.

 

They may have never been financially able to buy their son a complete scout uniform but they were so proud of their boy when he received his badges at the troop COH as were the boys. The boys never asked me, do you ever think I will ever have a complete uniform someday?, No what they would ask was, Do you think I could ever become an Eagle scout someday?.

 

That is the kind of wealth that people like BSA24 could not and will not ever understand, and IMO that kind of wealth is the true spirit of scouting.

[acco40]

The BSA encourages the proper clothing / uniform for the proper function. No, the field uniform is not very functional for in the field (while camping). Duh, the BSA doesn't push that. Now, for a Court of Honor - yes, the field uniform should be worn, all insignia properly placed, no sashes on belts, etc.

 

Regardless of how we "feel" - why not just administer the program the way it was intended to be administered? I think what many are really showing with their posts on this thread is an ignorance of the program.

[BadenP]

acco

 

I think you have greatly missed the point of the last page of posts. The so called "ignorance" as you call it is the expectation that every family has $135 to plop down for each of their boys who want to be scouts. The outright racist and bigotted comments by BSA24 just prove my point. We all believe in uniforms, even though BSA publications clearly state they are not required. Sometimes it takes a while for every boy who comes from a poor household to be able to be in full uniform, if ever. If a full uniform is the only way in your mind for a boy to be a true scout then the "ignorance of the program" lies with yourself and others who believe the same.

[SeattlePioneer]

Part of the challenge of Scouting for leaders is creating an interest in uniforming among youth and parents.

 

Part of the challenge of Scouting for youth and parents is finding ways and means of satisfying the desire they have acquired for uniforming.

 

That necessarily involves choice, to my way of thinking. It's too easy to just say you hafta be in a full uniform or else. Or else WHAT?

 

As I've noted before, as a unit leader I start each new boy with a neckerchief and slide. The pack makes about 2/3rds of popcorn sale revenues available to Cub Scouts and families for Cub Scout expenses, including uniforms.

 

I like to think we are partners with families in making Scouting affordable. Those who want to can pay for most or all of Scouting expenses, including uniforms, through the popcorn sale.

 

THRIFTY is a Scouting value. Ideally boys should be able to pay for Scouting through their own efforts, and we use the popcorn sale to make that practical.

 

Uniforming is only one of the methods of Scouting. It's all too easy to exaggerate it's importance, but it needs to be considered along with other Scouting methods and values.

[BSA24]

> every family has $135 to plop down

 

Cub scout shirt = $24

Cub scout pants = $25

Cub Scout socks = $6

 

$55 total. The pants don't even require a belt any longer. They have elastic waists. And if you know someone that needs a belt, let me know, I will mail them a cub scout belt for a youth.

 

If your unit is wise, they have a uniform bank with lots of shirts and pants, and a committee member who does nothing but talk boys and parents out of their old uniforms, and informs parents on the perils of badge magic and how it harms uniform recycling.

 

Any family can find $55. Any family can find $55. Let me write that one more time - unless you are completely homeless, with no access to shelter, no clothes on your back, etc, and drunk in a gutter, you can dig up $55. You can. It is all a matter of priorities.

 

> The outright racist and bigotted comments

> by BSA24 just prove my point.

 

Being poor or rich is a race? It is bigoted to believe in people? I don't agree with that.

 

 

> That is the kind of wealth that people like BSA24

> could not and will not ever understand, and IMO

> that kind of wealth is the true spirit of scouting.

 

It's easy to say that money is not important when you have it. It is also easy to say that it is impossible to get money when you don't have it. Both are false.

[kari_cardi]

BSA24, you are speaking from a position of privilege and you are not taking into account the different uniform requirements different units may have and that ideally, especially for the people on this forum, scouting is a family activity. I have six family members registered with the BSA to uniform. That happens at a cost higher than the $55 you estimate or the $135 previously mentioned. Your estimate is for the cheapest uniform, the cub scout uniform, and didn't include the hat, necker or slide that is required by the uniform guide. Also, a belt is important, otherwise earning belt loops is pointless. And I do have to make decisions about when and what to buy based on our finances. I can usually come up with $55, but I may feel that my family may benefit as a whole by putting that money elsewhere. I am sure many families feel the same.

 

Uniforming provides an identity, a sense of camaraderie, recognition among members. This can be accomplished without members matching head-to-toe with expensive clothing from a specialty shop. My family has done a popular bike tour where the participants feel that same recognition and camaraderie wearing participant wrist bands and bad tan lines. No 'uniform' required.

[SeattlePioneer]

Perhaps sooner or later you will begin to understand the comments that have been made, BSA 24. Right now they are going right over your head.

 

 

[Wood_Owl]

Pioneer is 100% correct.

 

In addition to teaching the Scouts to earn their way and save up for expenses, the uniform is FREE advertising for your troops.

I can assure you that in todays "Thug Culture", people a genuinely pleased to see Boy Scouts in uniform!

[BSA24]

> Right now they are going right over your head.

 

Making assumptions about the wisdom of others is never a good idea. Often one finds later in life that he was the one speaking from a lack thereof.

 

> BSA24, you are speaking from a position of privilege

 

Today I am. When I was a scout, I did not have a position of privilege.

 

> and you are not taking into account the different

> uniform requirements different units may have

 

I am not in charge of different units. I cannot help you with them. But in mine, uniforms are required, but only the shirt, pants, and socks are necessary.

 

The pack provides neckerchiefs. We have never asked anyone to have a boy wear a hat.

 

> I have six family members registered with the BSA to uniform.

 

Then get out on that streetcorner with them and sell some donuts. Or have a car wash. Or cancel cable TV - what does that cost? More than a uniform per month. Cancel your smartphone data plan for three months and save the money.

 

The money is there. You just don't want to feel the pinch.

 

> Your estimate is for the cheapest uniform,

 

Yes, it is. I figure it is only fair if uniforms are required to keep it to the necessities.

 

 

> required by the uniform guide.

 

It is a guide. It doesn't require anything. Have you not read the other comments here about how uniforms are not required at all in the program?

 

 

> Also, a belt is important, otherwise earning belt loops is

> pointless.

 

I'm really curious why a pack that has members that insist they cannot afford a uniform is spending money on the sports and academics belt loops for boys. My pack doesn't pay for them. We use our pack funds more sparingly and parents must pay the pack for the loops if they want us to get them for them. We save around $2000 a year that we put toward the books and neckerchiefs and camping for the boys at no cost to the families.

 

You are aware that the S&A program is not required of your unit?

 

> I may feel that my family may benefit as a whole by putting

> that money elsewhere.

 

That is your choice. You are not a victim. You do not have to join my scout unit. Maybe there is another one in the neighborhood that will buy your uniform for you. I will not. I was poor. I know about bad choices. I feel no sympathy for someone with a big screen TV and cable or dish service to watch football games who will not do without to buy their child a sports or scout uniform.

 

> Uniforming provides an identity, a sense of camaraderie,

> recognition among members.

 

Yep.

 

> This can be accomplished without members matching head-to-toe

> with expensive clothing from a specialty shop.

 

Perhaps it can. But that's how it is done in my scout unit.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

The virtue of Scouting is that BSA 24 can use his own strongly felt values in his own troop, where they probably work very well, and others can use different approaches and values in their own units, where they probably work well too.

 

On other threads people have bemoaned the lack of consistency between units in Scouting, but this illustrates why that variability is important.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Telling other people what their priorities ought to be and how they ought to use their money has always struck me as both a waste of effort and a bit jerky. Might be, I don't always agree with how others use their money or set their priorities, but it isn't likely to help much by being in their face and holier than thou about it. There's that old saying about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar.

[BSA24]

> Telling other people what their priorities

> ought to be and how they ought to use their

> money has always struck me as both a waste

> of effort and a bit jerky.

 

I agree. That's not what we do. I was just explaining why I do what I do. What we actually tell our recruits at the parent's night is:

 

* Scouting is a uniformed activity just like baseball

* You are kicked off the baseball diamond if you are out of uniform

* We don't roll that way, but want every boy to have socks, pants, and shirt

* Don't let the scout shop load you up with patches. You can get those later

* Don't buy a necker - we give you that

* Don't buy a handbook - we give you that

* Don't buy a belt unless you want to

* Hat is also not necessary

* Don't need a woggle. We have a guy that makes them from rope for free.

* Every registered leader will set an example like a good coach and wear the pants, shirt, and socks for their position. We provide the position patches, numerals, council strip.

* We do not offer financial aid or scholarships for uniforms. We will operate a fundraiser with you as the chair to raise money for uniforms if anyone has serious need.

 

That's pretty much how it goes. I wouldn't ever tell a parent to drop cable TV unless that parent came over to me and said they don't like fundraisers, don't want their kid to wash cars, and can't we just give them a uniform. I am intolerant of people asking for handouts. I believe that boys should learn that one should pull oneself up. That's when that line comes out. "You got cable TV?"

 

"Yes?"

 

"Turn it off for two months. There's your $55.00."

 

I've never yet, in my area, met anyone who could not figure out how to get a uniform. Many have protested, all managed to buy one with no assistance from us yet despite the protests. I guess they sold their jacked up truck with $10,000 worth of suspension upgrades or the corvette that was in front of the trailer. Maybe they rented their 55" TV to someone. Maybe they cut their data plan off on their facebook addiction phone for two months. I don't know.

 

But I'm not a socialist, and I don't believe in redistribution of wealth unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

If I thought someone was legitimately pinched and totally unable, and they were checked out and researched appropriately, then I would probably be willing to pay their way myself out of my pocket. I have not met that person yet.

 

I'd never send a boy home for being out of uniform. But I will get on his parents about it and ask what's up.

 

[BadenP]

BSA24

 

The comments you have made in this thread and several others have shown me you truly are an arrogant, sanctimonious, racist and bigotted person. Your posts speak for themselves and IMO anyone defending you is putting themselves in the same bracket as yourself. It is obvious to me you haven't got a clue about the poor in this country, and your self serving condemnation of them in this thread just proves my point. If you ever were put in a position of dire poverty, lost your job, your home, and all your savings you would be totally unable to cope with life, and all your arrogant superiority would probably get you into serious trouble. IMO you are unfit to be a scout leader poisoning the minds of young boys with your brand of vile contempt, bigotry, and hatred.

[johnponz]

I would not phrase it the same way as BP. However, I have to agree with the sentiment. A personal story:

 

Last year in the midst of the recession I lost a very good job. To make a long story short, the top operational person at the division that I worked for was replaced, and within a month, I was told I was being replaced because the staff saw me as being too close to the top leader. I always thought that it was a good thing for the top HR person in an organization to be close to the operational leadership at least in front of the employees. In any case, I was caught up in reorganization totally outside of my control (I had great performance reviews and received 110% of my bonus target a couple of weeks prior to my termination).

 

The company doid give me a year's severance that I was very grateful for which kept me above water and paying my mortgage for the time I was unemployed. I worked hard, and found a new position (with a slightly lower salary) after 9 months. Oh by the way at the very end of this period my wife and I found out we were having our 2nd child (very surprised we are both 45 y.o.).

 

I think about the situation we would have been in if I did not have the severance package. The termination WAS out of my control, and things would have turned very bad in 6 months if I did not have income coming in.

 

Now I did find a job that I worked hard to find using my recruitment network, but it took 9 months (3 months beyond my cushion). We could have been in dire straits except for good luck, and I will say God's help.

 

Now you can argue some of this was due to my choices. However much of it is not. I wonder in this economy how many people find themselves in this position, and start digging a hole they cannot get themselves out of.

 

Worked out for me. For some it does not. I believe comments such as BSA 24 is making just shows how insensitive some can be to others' problems and hardships.

(This message has been edited by johnponz)