Wood_Owl Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Our troop only requires the shirt. We provide the neckerchief, slide and epaulette flashes, and pretty cool neckerchief patch. We DO require the class A in meetings and while traveling. (its MUCH easier to spot your scouts in a crowd for a proper head count & they DO get more respect from the locals) Some of the leaders make it a point to wear our uniforms with pride, and that rubs off on the Scouts. What is really impressive is that some of our Scouts have begun to wear the uniform functionally, all campout long... of their own free will! They are even getting the switchbacks to go with that. It's become important to them. Not because they are "more" of a Scout than any other. It's because they WANT people to KNOW they are a Scout! =o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnponz Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It's funny, I read Beavah's post different. I read it to say that being hard arse was not the way to go, and we here in the US tend to require too much in a uniform. I thought his first couple phrases were Beav being a little sarcastic. That being said, you guessed it, I prefer a full field uniform with all of the insignia in the right place. National gets to set the rules and that is what they want. I find it somewhat strange though that BSA 24 would require official socks, and then say but requiring correct insignia is over the top. It seems like a distinction without a difference to me. Frankly, from a cost stand point, it is easier to justify the lack of official socks and pants than of out of place insignia. Your position seems a little incongruent that you demand a complete field uniform, but dislike those who demand correct insignia on the complete field uniform. Attention to detail is important in the "real world" so in our "game with a purpose" doesn't it make sense to teach this simple life lesson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGong Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It is our uniforms that show our outward pride in being scouts, just as doing a good turn daily, and being prepared. We have class B shirts and we require class A's at least once a month at our meetings. When a scout first joins his troop we recomend that he only get a class A shirt and not the pants and socks and belt because all of that together is over $100 and they just had to pay a registration fee, and dues, and now we have summer camp and thats how the expenses add up. As the boy gets older (and stops growing so much) we recomend that he gets the pants and as much as the full uniform as he can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 "People are willing to wear a uniform they think is a) functional, b) affordable and c) something they are proud of." I'll agree with C, but I don't agree with A or B. Personally, I'm waiting for the BSA to bring out uniform boardshorts because they'd suddenly be (A) - functional. Those "uniform swim suits" are piddly small -- do I look like Lieutenant Dangle on Reno 911? Seriously, I'm not going to walk around in public (i.e. anywhere outside the swimming pool house) with shorts that high above my knees. Edit: I don't even walk around in the pool house with shorts that high, I wear boardshorts to swim in. I'm also waiting for uniform Levi's. I'd buy those in a heartbeat too. The current pants, nylon or canvas, aren't warm enough for the cold when it snows or when there's a biting wind blowing, and they aren't cool enough for when it gets really hot. Southern California is technically a desert -- we have wild temperature swings. It's not that unusual to go from 40 degrees with a cold wind at night to 115 degrees in the baking heat the next day and the uniform pants are equally bad at both extremes. Not to mention when you unzip the legs the shorts are still too short. The new shirts are as bad as the pants have been. Whose idea was it to make a shirt that doesn't really breath and then make the only real "vent" in the shirt go completely useless when you wear any sort of school backpack or daypack or anything at all on my back? You want me to carry everything in my arms all day long when I go to a camporee or a Scout-o-rama or whatever? Honestly, it's much better sense to have some really light pair of pants to change into during the day (like boardshorts) after wearing heavier pants (like Levi's) during the night. Of course, that might necessitate some sort of daypack that, along with your water (CamelBak?), has your change of pants in it, but the new uniform shirts pretty much put a damper on that with their big useless back vent right where even a small school backpack sits on your back. Not to mention, if you have a tight backpack because you're walking a long distance, that velcro bump really starts to wear into the skin of your back as it rubs slightly. The new shirts are just worthless (not to mention the cigarette... I mean "technology" pocket, seriously, who really wears their phone on their sleeve). I'm proud of my uniform, I wear the full thing at every weekly Scout meeting that I go to, but they're pretty terrible as far as "real clothes" go and I can easily see how a family that doesn't have that much money wouldn't really be keen to go buy a full uniform.(This message has been edited by BartHumphries) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood_Owl Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I concur with just about everything Bart said. While I, and our unit are finding pride in our uniforms... National REALLY REALLY needs to rethink the idea of functional. Vents belong under the arms. The nylon swithcbacks are too hot and too cold. I havent heard about the polyester ones yet... Scouts still giving feedback on that one. But i do think they got the length right. I have had switchbacks that zipped off at the knee. After about an hour and a half of hiking the covered zippers did a number on my knees! I was red and raw from them. I'd rather wear sunblock on my knees, that mole skin. lol But it would be nice if they did more R&D first; ask some seasoned experts their opinions and field tested examples under harsh conditions before rolling them out on the poor scouts. THEN work on making it look good. Function before fashion. What would Baden Powell design with todays materials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 >>Like all da Methods of Scouting, though, it's easy to accidentally turn the Method into the Goal, and when we do that we lose our way. For some reason, Uniforming and Advancement are particularly susceptible to adults inadvertently turning them into goals, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The importance of anything resides in the scouters promotion of the program. After many years of working with youth, there is one dynamic that seems to be hyper-sensitized in youth and that is hypocrisy. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" is the one they most often pick up on, but their radar goes way beyond that. For example, the SM who insists on every T crossed and I dotted when it comes to advancement and "following the rules" and yet tells the boys to take a slide on the uniform. Is the message: You adhere or slide depending on the SM's mood, philosophy, ego, etc. So then all boys that "get in trouble" are those that didn't guess right. A scout is trustworthy. That means there are people out there that stick to what's right no matter what even if they don't personally agree with it. That may not mean they are popular or liked, but they can be trusted. Even if boys don't agree with such adults, at least they respect them for the stance they take. We spend a lot of time and energy on this forum seeking various interpretations, when in fact, what we are really seeking is justification. That, my friend, is the ultimate in hypocrisy and don't think for a moment that the boys aren't tuned in to that. Am I exempt from such hypocrisy? Heck no, fall prey all the time, but at least I can recognize it and get back on track. There are those out there that can't/won't. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 A couple of weeks ago, I was at an event where a local Boy Scout troop was running the food booth, which is one of their biggest fundraisers of the year. Not a uniform among them, unless you count the red t-shirts with a big BSA fleur-de-lis on it with the troop number prominently displayed. All the lads, and adults, were wearing jeans or shorts, boots or gym shoes - but you know what? There was no doubt in my mind, or anyone elses mind, that these fellows were Boy Scouts, and when they had a chance to wander through the event (a dulcimer festival), many were stopped by folks who wanted to tell them of their experiences in Boy Scouts. Is it important to wear "the" uniform? I don't think it's as important as wearing "a" uniform. A bunch of scouts heading down the trail wearing the same polo shirt, or wearing the uniform shirt and jeans is still readily identified as Scouts. It used to be that we could identify scouts without uniforms all the time - there are plenty of apocryphal stories from the 20's through the 70's of ununiformed scouts helping folks out, from shoveling the walks of an elderly person, to stopping to fix flats, to rendering first aid, that the folks being helped were able to identify their helpers as scouts without ever being told they were. THIS is what we should be striving for - more than trying to get our scouts to wear the full and proper uniform - to really bring home the "Do a Good Turn Daily" slogan - something I feel has been sorely lacking for some time. Oh, and Beavah? "...align us with culturally gay fashion sense." Care to explain how a straight fashion designer that borrowed liberally from the French military uniform of the 70's (is it any wonder a lot of African uniforms look like the BSA uniforms?), changed the colors, and called it his own, did that?(This message has been edited by calicopenn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 >>Setting an example is a powerful way to affect group and individual behavior. So does providing a neckerchief and slide for new Scouts so they can be "in uniform" from their first meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hello Eagledad, I agree that there is both a goodly degree of variability in uniforming and good reason for that variability. While I don't care much for mandatory uniforming, if it works for BSA24's unit and the families in it, they are welcome to it. I notice that on a different thread I've also clashed with BSA24's idea on advancement. He favors uncompromising advancement standards while I tend to be more concerned about boys finding ways to be successful and adapting advancement standards somewhat to the ability of boys. These are typical examples of the variability among Scout units. They result from the values and experience of leaders and the environment of the unit. Different units have different personalities because of these kinds of things. Personally, I generally consider that to be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Isn't there some kind of hypocrisy going on when the uniform is not required, but you have to have one to go to Jamboree... If BSA doesn't take it seriously why should anyone else? Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engineer61 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Uniforms are designed and worn for various reasons ... 1) to identify what side of a conflict you are on (wars, sports, etc.) 2) to provide a cohesive presentation in a performance (marching band, dance troupes) 3) to signify a position of authority (law enforcement) 4) to satisfy the ego of pontificating self-absorbed windbags (Idi Amin, Stalin, Kadafi, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA24 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 > So, there are no people who are truly poor, only those who "choose" to be poor? Correct. The youth certainly don't choose it, but the adults do. They make bad choices, and they are poor as a result. I used to believe I was lucky. Then I started doing social work with the poor to get others on their feet. I walked in a guilty liberal. I walked out and stopped the help with no guilt. I watched people boost up their trucks while claiming they could not afford a tie for an interview. I saw people paying for cigarettes by the carton and smoking them like a chimney, but saying they couldn't spend $40 on christmas presents for their children. It is all about choices. I was raised poor. I became wealthy through choices I made. I had no advantages other than I chose good decisions over poor ones. I could not afford a uniform. I chose to sell donuts at an intersection for three weekends as an 11 year old (found the idea in a 1970's Boy's Life in the back), and earned my money for my uniform. I believe that through scouting, you can teach youth to view themselves as fully capable - not victims - not stuck - not labels - but able to personally take control of their destiny and one day walk on the moon. They may fall short of walking on the moon, but they will be a heck of a lot better off. Prejudiced? I believe it is prejudiced to judge all poor people as somehow completely helpless and the rest of us as amazingly lucky. We all have various levels of fortune, but America gives us opportunity to change that. So, yeah, I require that the leaders wear the uniform down to the socks, because I believe that teaches something, and no, I don't pick on them for putting the bobcat badge in the wrong place. I don't think that teaches anything. But thanks for the insulting, discourteous, unfriendly, and unhelpful remarks, BadenP. That was very Scout Law of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Heh, heh! BSA 24 should spice things up on these discussion boards! I agree with him that the habits and character of people are enormously important. But changing those things is often very difficult to do. Scouting helps to shape the habits and character of the next generation in positive ways, and can even help improve the habits and character of parents if they participate in Scouting. Scouting has helped improve my own habits and character as an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 >>Different units have different personalities because of these kinds of things. Personally, I generally consider that to be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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