Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

[RememberSchiff]

NO BSA documents explicitly state that a scout cannot wear his uniform during his Eagle Scout project. There is also no rule explicitly stating that a scout can only wear his uniform at a scout activity. And there is no official policy explicitly stating that an Eagle Scout service project is not a scout activity. If those did exist, then the sources would have been produced by now.

 

These unique interpretations of policy for Eagle service project remains an opinion and is not a fact supported by official documents or policy practices. Eagle candidates may wear their uniform during their Eagle Scout project as they have done in the past. We cannot add our own advancement requirements.

 

My advice, if a purported policy, rule, guideline seems not quite right, ask that person, "Show me where it is written." If they cannot, then it is only their opinion.

 

 

[Hunt]

"That is not what it means Hunt. It means that the work is done by the scout as an individual not as a representative of the BSA and so the BSA has no authority of responsibility during the work. He is not there as a representative of his charter organization, council, or national BSA office. His work is outside the sphere of scouting."

 

This your opinion of what it means, of course, as you have made abundantly clear. What I'm suggesting to you is that interpretation is not supported by the context or the facts, or by any BSA publication that I know of. It is simply untrue that the Scout is not a representative of Scouting when he is performing his project, no matter how many times you repeat it. It's certainly not true that BSA has no authority or responsibility during the work, because the work is subject to numerous BSA requirements and must be approved by BSA representatives both before and after completion. As I mentioned before, if BSA approves a plan with defective safety provisions, and an injury and lawsuit were to result, BSA would have liability. Perhaps this has never happened, and BSA has not had to rethink how it carries out the approval process.

[Bob White]

Schiff

That is twice you have suggested that this in some way ADDS a requirement and again I ask that you post what requirement you think that is?

 

There are uniform rules whose prohibited elements include those of Eagle projects. I have posted those regulations and they are very clearly stated.

 

Hunt, contact the national director of Boy Scout Advancement and ask him what the phrase "outside the sphere of scouting" means regarding the Eagle project. Unless he has changed his mind I have provided you accurate information.

 

So unnless you have some BSA rule or policy that appproves an idividual to use the uniform and name of scouting for work done "outside the sphere of scouting" and for soliciting for an outside organization or for a personal event, then all your argument consists of is "uh-uh you're wrong", And that is not enough to overrule the published policies and regulations of the BSA.

[Hunt]

"Hunt, contact the national director of Boy Scout Advancement and ask him what the phrase "outside the sphere of scouting" means regarding the Eagle project. Unless he has changed his mind I have provided you accurate information."

 

I don't find it necessary to contact anybody, because the correct interpretation of the language is clear to me, and BSA's own publications confirm that I am correct, especially in regard to wearing the uniform. Did you contact the national director about this? I would be very curious to know what you asked him and what he said. Did you ask him specifically about the uniforming question? Thus far you have only referred to documents that don't really support your position. If you have something more, it is odd to me that you didn't mention it before.

[FScouter]

My earlier comment (about 20 posts back) about who would make the "last post" was a feeble effort to get the participants to quit posting their retorts and let the other guy make the "last post", thereby ending the argument. Oh well.

[evmori]

Let's not forget the uniform isn't required to be a BSA member! Just thought I would toss that out there!

[Bob White]

Because of some of the scouting activities I have been involved in I have spoken with many national level scouters both volunteer and professional. The national office is a wealth of information and those who have used them as a resource know they are very cooperative. Yes, I have spoken with Terry on a number of occassions and been involved with him on training staffs.

 

Using personal resources is very helpful and one of the things taught in every level of scouting leadership training. The problem is that it is impossible to prove especially on this forum where posters refuse to even believe information printed in BSA documents. Or read information without the shadow of their own personal bias.

 

So I offer to you to contact the director of advancement yourself, and enhance your knowledge of scouting. The worst thing that can happen is that you prove me wrong, and I am not worried about that.

 

Can a scout wear a uniform when soliciting for an ouside organization in the case of an Eagle Project?

 

What does "outside the sphere of scouting" mean in regards to the project work.

 

These would be a good place to start your conversation.

 

Or you can wait till later this summer I will being seeing him again.

 

 

[eagle90]

If Eagle Projects are not Scouting activities, why are councils continually telling units to log Eagle Service Project hours on the Good Turn for America website? If projects were not Scouting activities then they should not be logged. Of course they are Scouting activities. If it looks like a duck.........

[Hunt]

I'm sorry, Bob, I thought you were indicating you had spoken to him about this. However, as I noted, I don't see any reason to ask anybody about it, because my position in this is consistent with what scouts have always done and are currently doing, and what BSA promotes. There's really not any need to do any more to demonstrate that your position on this is in error. If you think BSA needs to correct what you see as a problem, I suppose you could talk to them. I predict they will decline to instruct scouts to stop wearing their uniforms at the best PR photo-ops BSA has.

[Bob White]

The BSA can log anything they want, Eagle scout projects are just one form of service done by scouts that national has tracked.

 

Think this through a little. Just because we are always scouts or scouters does mean that anything we do is done under the umbrella of scouting.

 

We all have parts of our lives that are outside the sphere of scouting, in which our actions are not controlled or protected based on our BSA membership.

 

One year at Philmont Training Center at an conference for members of council and district advancement committees, I watched as an opening quiz was given to a few dozen experienced scouters. Many of whom had several years of Troop experience. Of the 10 or so questions regarding advancement that were asked of them few got 4 correct.

 

It would be a shame if their lack of knowledge at that point made them close their minds to learning about a topic they thought they knew. Rather than take offense when they discovered there might be more to learn than they thought, they put their personal bias aside and worked to understand the topic better. Ah, the good old days.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

I don't like umbrellas. Never have. I'd rather years a slicker with a hood. Umbrellas are awkward to carry & tend to get blown apart when it's windy. A rain slicker will keep you drier & warmer than any umbrella.

 

Using personal resources is very helpful and one of the things taught in every level of scouting leadership training. The problem is that it is impossible to prove especially on this forum where posters refuse to even believe information printed in BSA documents. Or read information without the shadow of their own personal bias.

 

No one has doubted the validity or even disputed what you have posted about the Unit Money Earning form or what is in the Advancement & Procedures or the Uniform & Insignia Guide. What is being disputed is how you are applying the rules for each individual piece to come up with you interpretation that an ELSP is not a Scouting project.

 

Who wants to go get some ice cream?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[eagle90]

Quoting from our council's Life to Eagle packet:

 

"Obtain a Local Tour Permit for all Eagle projects that take place away from the normal meeting place. A copy of thei permit should be included in the scout's workbook"

 

To me , if a permit is necessary, this says to me this IS indeed a scouting activity.

[Bob White]

As you said that is from a local council document, created by local volunteers who may not have read the National rules too carefully.

 

There are over 300 councils, each with lots of volunteers not all of whom do things correctly, as has been pointed out by a variety of posters on this very forum.

 

So keep in mind the only the national executive board controls the use of the uniform and advancement policies. Not units, not individual volunteers and not councils.

 

As far as a tour permit since the project is not a troop activity and since the candidate is doing the work outside the sphere odf scouting, and ....since he is not required to have any other scout work on the project then a tour permit would not be needed according to the conditions set forth on the permit.

 

Now if the troop were going to the project as a troop service project then they would need a local tour permit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eagle90]

Of course!!! What is wrong with me???

 

The council is wrong and Bob White is right!

 

I should have seen that one coming!

[evmori]

As you said that is from a local council document, created by local volunteers who may not have read the National rules too carefully.

 

No one said it was a local council document. It is a Local Tour Permit due to the fact it is for a trip of less than 500 miles and withing in the USA - Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426E. There is a National form on the BSA web site. A National Tour Permit application is used for trips over 500 miles and/or outside the USA - National Tour Permit Application, No. 4419C. This is also a National form and is also on the BSA web site.

 

Another mis-interpretation.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

(This message has been edited by evmori)