Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

[Bob White]

The fact that "outside the sphere of scouting" and "not on scout property" are two completely separate issues is easily proved.

 

If not being on scout property made something outside the sphere of scouting then the troop meeting each week at your charter organizations meeting location would be outside the sphere of scouting by your definition, since it is not on scout property, and of course that is not true.

 

If inside the sphere of scouting meant that an activity was held on BSA property then when an outside group rented a scout camp it would a scouting activity, and that is not true either.

 

So your interpretation does not hold up to the facts.

 

So it is easy to show that being "outside the sphere of scouting" and being "on or off scout properties" are two distinct issuees.

 

For instance:

You can have activities on scout property that can be inside the sphere of scouting, and you can have activities on scout property outside the sphere of scouting.

 

You can have activities outside the sphere of scouting that are on BSA properties and you can have activities outside the sphere of scouting that are off of scouting properties.

 

They are not the same thing.

 

The BSA quite clearly states that an Eagle service project is both outside the sphere of scouting, and two paragraphs later also says that it must be done off of BSA property.

 

They are two separate rules.

 

There are lots of things in scouting not found specifically in BASIC training. What Basic Training does do is show you the manuals that contain the policies that effect uniform, advancemet, fundraising, safety, and other policies and you are told is relevant information that you should learn and know.

 

Rather than place the scout in any situation where they might wear the uniform at an inappropriate activity the BSA depends on leaders to follow the policies and to coach and mentor the scouts as to when the appropriate times are.

 

Believe me kb6jra, this is not the first time that the majority of posters disagreed with me only to discover that I was correct in my understanding of the BSA program.

 

Research topics such as, adult leadership on patrol outings, what the first rank in Boy Scouts is, who can be a merit badge counselor, and other topics and you will find that being outnumbered and not being wrong is not an unusual position for me on this this forum.

 

Being in the majority is not a component of being right, nor do "feelings" override rules, policies, or Methods.

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

Perhaps the problem here is the misperception that "outside the sphere of Scouting" is some kind of legal term. It really isn't. There is simply no evidence that it means anything other than the obvious meaning, which is that the Eagle Project is to be done for a non-Scouting organization. To try to stretch it into some more global, pseudolegal term is just unwarranted, and places restrictions on boys that BSA has not made. Bob, do you honestly think that if BSA wanted to prohibit boys from wearing their uniforms while doing Eagle projects, this is all they would say about it? Boys have been wearing uniforms to perform Eagle projects for decades, and BSA has published photos and even paintings of them doing it. It's just nonsensical to think that BSA intends to prohibit this practice. I'm sorry you feel outnumbered, but in this case it's because you have made an extreme and erroneous interpretation.

[Bob White]

First, let's be clear that paintings and photographs are not the approriate references or resources for determinng BSA rules, policies, or procedures. Even Rockewll's paintings have errors in them.

 

So let's agree tha paintings, feelings, and photos are inappropriate for determining BSA rules,regulations, or policies.

 

The ONLY appropriate sources are the documents of the BSA. "outside the sphere of scouting" is not a term I created but is a direct quote from the aprropriate BSA publication.

 

It is not the same as "outside of BSA property" as I have already shown. It is a separate issue found in a separate unrelated instruction in the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual.

 

Outside the sphere of scouting means that it is not an official unit, council or national activity and as such is not the responsibility of the BSA.

 

As an example, On a BSA activity if a non-BSA youth was injured they would be covered by BSA accident insurance. If at an Eagle project a non-BSA volunteer was injured they would be covered by the insurance of the property owner where the project is taking place not the BSA, because the work is done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

If the Scout is leading a group of non-scout volunteers no adult there is required to manintain a two deep leadership condition because the activity is done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

If a Scout troop were working on the project then ONLY the scout members must adhere to the two deep leadership rule not the the non-scout members because while the members are on a troop activity the candidate's work and the project are done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

A candidate can assign work to any adult or person there regardless of their office or position in the unit, because he is not there as a scout he is there as the project leader and as such operates outside the sphere of scouting.

 

I have never suggested this rule exists to prohibit the scout from wearing the uniform. The rule exists to insulate the BSA from any liability resulting from the project and to allow the scout to operate as the leader without any restrictions put on him based on the structure of the unit.

 

The BSA makes it clear that this is an INDIVIDUAL activity and not connected to a unit, council, or national office of the BSA.

 

It is that independent activity, and the fact that it is done by the individual and not on behalf of the BSA, that makes the wearing of the uniform inappropriate according to the uniform policies of the BSA.

 

You will find this, as I said before (not based on my "feelings: or opinion) in section 7 of the Unit Money Earning Application and in Clause 6 of the Uniform Regulations of the BSA. Both of which I have supplied in this thread in previous posts.

 

Whether it be an Eagle project or not, it is inapproprite to wear the BSA uniform or use the BSA name to suggest endorsement by the BSA without their specific permisiion and the BSA has already told you that the project and the raising of donations for the project are done outside the sphere of scouting.

[Hunt]

Bob, this isn't about feelings. It is about the fact that your argument does not logically follow from your references. It is patently obvious that BSA considers Eagle projects to be Boy Scout activities, and thus the uniform is entirely appropriate. Look at page 57 of the most recent (May 2008) Boys Life. What are the boys wearing in that picture? Sure looks like a BSA Activity Uniform. And what are they doing? An Eagle Service Project. Since BSA itself obviously does not agree with your interpretation, you should really think it over.

[Bob White]

Again, we have all scene photos in Boys' Life that are not correct. The purpose of photos in Boys' Life is not to establish or share BSA policies or procedures.

 

Also. I never said that a troop volunteering on a service project could not wear the uniform. But the BSA says specifically that work of the candidate is done OUTSIDE the sphere of scouting., The candidate is not there as a representative of the troop, or the Council, OR the BSA. He is there as a community volunteer on a project that is done by and for a benefitting organization other than the BSA.

 

His work is accepted toward the requirement, JUST AS all kinds of activities by scouts are approved for credit toward advancement requirements. They are however done outside the sphere of scouting. Just because the work is accepted for advancement does not make the activity a scout activity, as I showed with the example of the PE class and the fitness requirements.

 

 

[Stosh]

With the majority of units out there breaking the scouting rules on this issue on a daily basis, I'm sure it will eventually bring the whole organization to it's knees sometime within the next 100 years. Until then if a unit expects their scouts to look like scouts while doing a scout's eagle project, so be it. There's probably not one council out there that's going to ever bring this issue to light let alone fight it in a court of law. To date, how many units have had their charters pulled for doing eagle projects in scout uniforms?

 

Please cite me an example of national ever attempting to enforce this rule to the degree it actually makes an affect on scouting activities.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Where did I ever say the scouts would be punished in any way. Think of all the uniform gaffs that adults have admitted to just on this forum. Have they ever been punished in any way? Of course not.

Just because there are no uniform police does not alter the rules, nor does it make an Eagle project a scout activity.

 

Scouts only know the uniforming conditions that they are taught through the adult leadership. That doesn't alter the BSa rules either.

 

 

[evmori]

Well, it seems we are at an impasse. Bob interprets "outside the sphere of Scouting" to mean an ELSP is not a Scouting activity. But he has yet to produce anything that states an ELSP is not a Scouting activity. Yes he has listed a bunch of rules & regs that guide fund raising & define the primary use of the uniform & a couple other things. But if his interpretation is accurate, those rules & regs don't apply since an ELSP isn't a Scouting activity! I wonder what National would have to say about this?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Again, we have all scene photos in Boys' Life that are not correct. The purpose of photos in Boys' Life is not to establish or share BSA policies or procedures."

 

To paraphrase Groucho Marx, who are you going to believe, Bob White or your own eyes? The picture I mentioned was not a photo, but artwork in Boys Life's regular feature on Eagle projects. My son has recycled most of his old Boys Lifes, but I found one from October, 2006. On page 51, again the "On the Trail to Eagle Scout" depicts, in artwork obviously created for the magazine, boys, including the kid who is obviously the candidate, performing an Eagle project in activity uniforms. It appears to me that BSA, far from prohibiting the wearing of the uniform in this situation, actually promotes it. I've given examples froom 30 years ago, from two years ago, and from last week. On the other side, there is simply an argument extrapolated from various documents, that is based on the nonsensical claim that an Eagle Project is not a Scouting activity. On the subject of liability (really a red herring), no court in the land would find that an Eagle project is not a Scouting activity, since it is planned according to BSA rules, approved by BSA authorities (including the unit and the district), carried out according to BSA rules, approved again by BSA authorities after it is performed, and is a required element in BSA's advancement scheme.

Scouts, wear your uniform to do your Eagle project if you like. There is no rule against it.

[Bob White]

No organization inluding the BSA records its rules or policies in sketches. to use an artists sketch to prove a BSA policy is absurd.

 

They are not my rules. These are are all rules that have been approved by the BSA executive committee and recorded in official BSA documnets and available for every adult leader to learn.

 

The BSA tells you that this is an individual activity and not a scout activity. The individual chooses the project, the individual creates the plan, benefitting organization approves the work, it is done o the benefitting organization behalf, on the benefitting organizations property, The BSA only determines if the work can be used for the advancement requirement. The candidate can do the work for the benefitting organization whether the BSA accepts it for advancement or not. The BSA tells you that it is done outside the sphere of Scouting.

 

Your refusal to read or accept the BSA documents and just look at the pictures does not alter the written policies.

 

Scouts and Scouters should wear their uniforms to any appropriate activity, but should understand that what is appropriate is determined by the BSA and not by personal opinion or skethes in a magazine.

 

[evmori]

They are not my rules. These are are all rules that have been approved by the BSA executive committee and recorded in official BSA documnets and available for every adult leader to learn.

 

I would agree with this, Bob. But what you are stating is your interpretation of those rules, which in my & others opinions are incorrect.

 

Sketches & photos are used by many organizations to assist in the understanding of their rules. Take a look at your driver manual. Look at any operating manual. There are graphics depicting the rules.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Hunt]

Bob, you keep repeating the same fallacious argument in the face of clear evidence that you've simply made a mistake in this case. BSA does NOT say that an Eagle project is not a Scout activity. That's your erroneous interpretation of language that explains that it is to be performed by the Eagle candidate for the benefit of a non-Scouting organization. It is simply absurd to argue that an Eagle project is not a Scout activity. You insinuate that you've cited some "rule" that the uniform is not to be worn when performing an Eagle project, but you haven't, because there is no such rule. I am quite confident that BSA is well aware that Eagle projects are one of the best PR opportunities scouting has, which is why they obviously promote the wearing of the uniform while doing the work. Really, Bob, you of all people shouldn't be making up a rule that doesn't exist.

[Bob White]

What I have done is quoted the related passages from three BSA documents that contain polices and rules approved by the national executive board.

 

You will need to come up with something more substantial than an artists sketch in a magazine, or your personal opinion, in order to counter the rules of the BSA.

 

Remember also that the use of the uniform is not the most important part to understand here it is simply a residual condition that is supported by the rules. The important thing is to understand what "outside the sphere of scouting" means and how it affects the Eagle project. And it has nothing to do with the rule about doing the project off of BSA owned property.

 

What is the sphere of scouting?

[Hunt]

The answer to your question is simple, and has been repeated several times. In context, "outside the sphere of Scouting" means that the project is to be performed for a non-Scouting organization, so the scout can demonstrate through helping others the leadership skills he has learned in Scouting. That's it. It has nothing to do with liability, uniforming, fund-raising, or anything like that. It is obvious to anyone looking at the BSA documents that the Eagle Service Project remains a scouting activity. It is a scouting activity that is performed "outside the sphere of Scouting." You seem to think that there is some contradition in terms there, but there really isn't. I hope this helped you understand better the gap in your reasoning here.

[Bob White]

That is not what it means Hunt. It means that the work is done by the scout as an individual not as a representative of the BSA and so the BSA has no authority of responsibility during the work. He is not there as a representative of his charter organization, council, or national BSA office. His work is outside the sphere of scouting.

 

Just as your employement is outside the sphere of scouting. The rules of scouting do not apply at your place of employment as you are not there as a representative of the BSA, nor would it be appropriate for you to go to work each day dressed in the BSA uniform.

 

And if while at work if you are injured you would not be protected in any way by the BSA because your work there is outside the sphere of scouting.

 

That does not mean that the skills and values you learn and use as a scouter cannot be applied at work. But you use them without work being a scouting activity.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)