Scouts no longer wear the Scout Uniform!

[Nessmuk]

MomtoEli, If I can, let me suggest that you are working against yourself by re-defining the uniform (the jeans substitute).. This absolutely sends the message (whether intended or not) that the uniform pants are not important and therefore teh rest of it is optional too..I know that the intent was probably to make it easier for them to affors the uniform or to be in uniform, but my experience in Scouts and other places is that as soon as you lower the bar, most will stop trying and will consistently underachieve by some amount.. I went through this when re-establishing a Pack a few years back.. Many boys already had navy blue school unfoirm pants and my wife and other moms talked me (of all people)into accepting those as a substitute.. When I heard a member of the Committee tell anew parent to just get wear jeans or Walmart blue pants, I realized my error and I have been working to fix it ever since..

 

What about the "It''s OK to wear the baseball uniform because they are trying to fit Cub Scouts into their life"?? I made a similar analogy on another thread, but do you think that a little league coach would accept a boy showing up at the game in the Cub uniform because "they are trying to fit it all in".!!???. Unacceptable.

 

The Scout program can help parents learn too - how not to overcommit - how to establish priorities and make decisions.. I am sad to see boys leave scouts to play in travel teams etc... But I am happy that they and their parents actually made a decision about what they consider more important. I don;t agree with their decision, but that''s another story.

 

Tell the boys and parents up front that there is a committement required, and that in return they will get their max benefit from the Scouting experience. This establishes expectations up front and saves everyone hassle and pain.. I.e. more of a win-win.. Those who walk away saying "we can''t fit that in" now won''t become the parent who never shows and helps, or never bothers to crack the book with their son, or never even sews a badge, or blows off the uniform etc etc ..We don''t have a giant pack but I like to think we have a good active pack. This is at the core of my talk at joining night.. tomorrow !! Eeesh I gotta get ready for tomorrow..

[MomToEli]

Well, you are talking to a mom whose little Bear Cub simply was going to DIE if I did not buy him the new Cub Switchbacks, so I''m talking to you this evening $25 lighter. And now that he has them, he has to wear them. I suspect I should have gotten him socks, too ...

 

I would LOVE to see us in full uniform. Of course, I''m a girl whose a sucker for a guy in uniform anyway But, the jeans as suitable pants decision was made by the Committee long before we came on the scene. Part of the reason I''m having a problem at the Den level is because we simply don''t take uniforms seriously at the Pack level, beyond most of the leaders. I say most, because we do have one that is always showing up in street clothes. I think our CC and myself are the only leaders that even OWN a pair of official pants - they don''t make them long enough for my dh - we''ve checked. Our CC, who is a great guy who lives for the Scouts, is really open to discussion on most things, but not this one. I do have him realizing that it would be in the Pack''s best interest to at least start rewarding properly attired scouts at the pack meetings. But, this is one of his pet peeves. He simply does not want the dislike of a uniform to keep a boy from being in scouts.

 

One little victory - he did tell the kiddos that for our upcoming family campout that if they didn''t want to wear Class A shirts - and he wouldn''t blame them if they didn''t want to - then they could be in any kind of a Scout t-shirt. A big step for him, but I''m sure that sounded like clothing free for all to them and their parents. And he is really wanting to spend some of our money to subsidize the creation of, printing of and owning of a Class B tshirt.

 

There is little consolation in the realization that the problem is so very widespread.

 

 

[thayer1924]

My troop has been progressing towards ''proper'' uniforms. I right now have requested for the boys to get official BSA pants. I took over this troop a couple years ago, and most meetings no one was in a uniform shirt. They even, during saluting the flag would say "hand over heart" so at least they knew not to salute. I informed all the boys when I took over that they had to wear uniform shirts. We ordered class B only for basic meeting but the rule was , court of honors, having visitors or board of review & conferences... class A. I know my son was probably the worst offender as I sometimes didn''t want to put the uniform on after a day at work wearing a law enforcement uniform... but I got used to putting on the shirt and my son followed.. so did the rest of the troop. They tuck their shirts in at beginning of meeting. I have a new ASM who is strick about uniform protocol, so we informed the boys, this year to go get pants. We have about 1/2 complying with a promise of the other boys getting them soon. We have a state police camporee coming up next month and I explained we need to be in full uniform. I''ve requested a uniform ''shakedown'' at next meeting to see who needs what.

It is true.. scouts will follow what the leaders do. I''ve been wearing full uniform for about 6 months or so and more boys are showing up in uniform.

[BrentAllen]

Food for thought - straight out of the BSA publications:

 

Insignia Guide

Official Policy

Personal commitment

The leaders of Scouting - both volunteers and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions. (compromising to anything else is not promoting the correct complete uniform)

 

The Rules and Regulations and policy.

The following pages contain our uniform policy as taken from the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. The chapters contain applications of the regulations to each program area. Neither the Rules and Regulations of the Boys Scouts of America, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America through its Program Group Committee.

 

Scout Uniform, Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 12

The complete official uniform includes the Scout long-sleeved or short-sleeved shirt, Scout pants or shorts, Scout belt and buckle, Scout socks or knee socks. A neckerchief and cap or campaign hat are optional. Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor, and most other indoor functions. The uniform should also be worn during special outdoor occasions, such as Scout shows, flag ceremonies, and special times at summer camp.

 

Cub Scout Leader Book, pg. 8-4

Uniform Rules & Regulations

No alteration of or addition to the official uniform, badges or insignia - or the rules and regulations concerning the wearing of the uniform - may be authorized by anyone except the National Executive Board.

 

How To Wear The Uniform, pg. 12-11

Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform.

 

The Cub Scout Uniform, pg. 12-2

The Cub Scout uniform consists of the following parts:

Trousers or shorts. Official blue, machine washable polyester/cotton.

 

Shirt....

 

How To Uniform Your Pack, pg. 12-11

The uniform helps you achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting, so you will want to make sure that all of the boys and adult leaders in your pack are completely and correctly uniformed. Leader attitudes toward uniforming are important because leaders influence the attitudes of boys. When leaders are in uniform, boys will know that uniforms are important and necessary. When leaders wear badges and insignia incorrectly, boys get the impression that proper uniforming isn''t required.

Remember that uniforms identify boys and leaders as members of the BSA. Make sure that they wear the full and correct uniform. When a boy joins a pack, be sure to impress on his family the importance of the uniform. Suggest that the boy begin his Cub Scout experience by helping to earn part of the cost of his uniform.

The pack committee should set the goal of 100 percent boy and adult leader uniforming.

 

Finally, a B-P quote:

"Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I will show you a poorly uniformed leader."

 

I inherited a Pack with a waist-up uniform policy. One Wood Badge ticket item later, and we had a full uniform Pack. It can be done, it just takes vision and determination. Wood Badge training doesn''t hurt, either. How did we do it? A quick inspection at every Pack meeting with the winning Den getting $2 Brewster''s Ice Cream Cards. We also had an inspection where the boys inspected the leaders (they were given a heads up). That got the leaders in uniform quickly - the den with the winning leaders got the ice cream cards. It is amazing what a kid will do for a $2 Brewsters card!

 

You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Nessmuk]

Uniform bribes generally backfire or don''t work.. Boys today are so overstimulated, bribed and candy-coaxed in every other activity that a uniform "reward" just adds to "the list"..

 

People (boy people too) respect clarity and boys crave structure.. Clearly state that "Scouts wear uniforms. It''s part of the program. Here''s why...and so on"

 

As usual, the adults on this committee have taken things too far in that they have zero authority to decide what constitutes a scout uniform. These maybe well-intentioned folks need to be edumucated ! Where do these people get these ideas? Too little knowledge + too much power = I''m on the Committee. I can make up the rules. I can turn Cub Scouting into what I think it should be."

 

Set that Committee straight nicely and invite the District Executive to the Committe meeting that night.. See if they don''t back off and nod up and down when the DE says "MomtoEli is right folks. Where''d you get the idea that you can authorize changes to the uniform?". If the CC get''s ticked and quits then he''s likely into it for the wrong reasons in the first place. !

 

I''m wondering what happened to the furry critter with the flat tail who will show up and rant about Scouters like me living out their military fantasies with the program - just because we stand by the fundamentals of the movement... Ayy? Here little guy - got some tree meat for you. Come eer boy !

 

[MomToEli]

In an ideal world, I''d like to see the kiddos decide that they want to be in uniform because they take pride in doing so. So far, there is a total disconnect with that. That same lack of pride and respect can be seen often during the presentation of the colors. There is lots of fidgeting and talking during the Pledge.

 

Since I''ve been known to make the kids in my den re-do the Pledge if they do so in that manner at Den Meetings, maybe that''s why the comment was made by a parent that sometimes I''m too "military". Hmmm. Oh, well.

 

Anyway, sorry for the little hijack there. I''ll be pecking away at this one steadily.

[Oak Tree]

Nessmuk,

 

I''m not sure what alternate reality you''re living in, but the idea that my DE would attend my committee meeting to lecture them about the definition of the uniform is beyond ludicrous. The great majority of the packs around here do not use the full uniform. The DE is not going to make an issue of it. At least my DE would have enough sense to know not to fight this losing battle. Hardly any official part of the BSA seems to make an issue of it. You can go to summer camp without full uniforms. You can join OA without full uniforms. You can attend camporees without the full uniform. The BSA simply does not reinforce the message that you can''t modify the uniform. Sure, they *say* it, but they don''t *do* anything about it.

 

Can you get units to wear the full uniform? Yes, it''s possible. We''ve had the discussion here about how to go about it. Some situations are easier than others. But I''m hard pressed to imagine much good coming from a brow-beating lecture. I think the committee will laugh you off, or desert you.

 

I''m imagining my committee just rolling their eyes at this topic. Tell them that they don''t have the authority to redefine the uniform, and they''ll just shake their heads and dig in their heels. In practice, of course they have the authority - committees do it all the time. Technically, you''re right, they don''t. So let''s just say that they''re not officially redefining the uniform, they''re just deciding that they won''t take any action against boys who show up in half uniform.

 

MomToEli seems to be doing her best, but you need to use appropriate strategies, and starting a war over this issue isn''t the way to go. BrentAllen is right, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Hunt]

Units don''t have the authority to alter the uniform, but they have the power to do so, because there are no official consequences. Use of the Uniform method is not even mentioned on the 2007 Centennial Quality Unit form--from looking at that, you would conclude that 100% subscription to Boys'' Life is more important than the uniform.

[John-in-KC]

Don''t even get me started on "Quality" metrics...

 

Hunt''s right. The Uniform Method relies on voluntary compliance. Anyone and everyone here can say all they want on both sides of the issue, at the end of the day: To any one given Pack or Troop out there... it''s simply moving air. Some units believe in full and proper uniforming. Others, for whatever reason, choose not to.

 

As I said waaaayy up front in this thread: I've seen young men wear their uniforms with pride, and allow themselves to have their photgraph where everyone can see it. Recently, a Scouter beloved in our Council passed on: In his memory many, many young men wore their honor society coup thongs (a part of official/field/A and activity/B uniforms in our Council by Executive Board decision) to school on the day of his funeral.

 

Together

Everybody

Achieves

More

 

Using TEAM can promote good wearing of the uniform...

 

OTOH: Supply Corporation needs to finish the job they started with Switchbacks: High durability, high field utility, lower cost items that meet the woods test and the COH test.

 

The de la Renta uniform is perfect... for PARLOUR SCOUTS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Gonzo1]

When the Oscar de la Renta Parlour uniform came out, everyone ran and got them, mainly I think because it was new and different.

 

The switch back pants probably need to be "tweeked" a bit, and I hear a newer version is coming out. When it hits the street, I''ll get switchbacks.

 

Adults who say they wear "look alike" pants arent'' fooling anybody, "look alike" uniform pants don''t look at all like BSA uniform pants.

 

It will be nice when a new shirt comes out, I really miss the 70''s era uniform - and - Man, I hate the Elvis collar.

 

I like Brent''s comments and John-in-KC''s comments. Hunt is right, there are no official consequences, BUT, you can have your own with contests and rewards which lead to gentle peer pressure which in Brent''s case fixd the problem.

 

 

[Nessmuk]

Oak Tree - Wow ! So I am supposed to only stand up for a principle when it is convenient and people will easily fall into line ?? Whoa .. See - Things are bad.. We have Scouters who are saying "only stand up and challenge wrongs when it''s convenient."

 

One could do the same thing and take every point of the Scout Law and build a great set of situational ethics that rationalize why we should not take any of them seriously. Start with trustworthy - "You can''t trust anyone anymore !" They say.. "Can''t hardly trust yourself.. Lots of evidence to support that !" And on and on with the rest of the points.

 

Welcome to my "alternate reality" of Scouting - where I actually aim to live by and support the fundamentals of the movement as opposed to going at it "cafeteria style". My DE happens to support my unit and will be happy to explain the basics to wayward parents who are trying to build their own little version of Scouting.

 

The real and dangerous "alternate reality" is the one that is being synthesized by people who don''t have a proper grip of what the movement really is supposed to be - or by those who know, but are too limp and spongy to resist the twisting and pressure placed on them by the self-proclaimed revisionists.

 

As far as browbeating or starting a war, I would not (and did not) advocate that, but I do advocate being respectfully strong in the face of such nonsense, and if they won''t correct themselves or stand to be corrected by a proper authority, then I advocate leaving them to their own ruin and building up a new unit the right way. The best boys and parents will flock to this new unit in time.

 

The vinegar /honey thing is a nice crutch for saying "Be nice". That is all fine at the start of the discussion, but when dealing with nonsense such as that committee''s position, a bit of pressure is acceptable after they have shown that they don''t wish to be bothered with fact or principle (i.e. the nonsense begins to show).

 

As far as deserting, that would be a favor to rid the Pack of the twisters. I learned long ago not to be blackmailed into accepting such nonsense at the threat of "I''ll leave". If they leave (as I would in the event I described above) then best wishes to them as they go. Don;t let the door... you know what! I don''t threaten parents or other leaders with "I''m gonna leave you high and dry!" and I would not accept the same from them. People today seem to get so dependent on approval from and inclusion by others that they get afraid to stand up and object or vote with their feet. It seems some will comprimise almost anything to "stay with the unit" and "be Nice".

 

Being a good person is much more important than being a nice person.

 

 

[highcountry]

It''s not a convenience thing. It''s the realization of the reality that putting the priority of insisting on standing up to a standard that pretty much no one wants in my troop anyway over an otherwise great program and all the benefits the scouts are receiving.

 

It''s not simply getting along and be nice, it''s that you sometimes make decisions and comprimise to maintain an overall positive and functional relationship with other adult leaders and committee. Plain and simple,as I discussed in another thread last Spring, we had a CC who was destroying the troop, I had the 100% adament support of all adult leaders and Committee and we managed to get rid of that CC. I have been doing many positive things witht he troop and one of the areas I frequently hear for the positives is that I bring people together, build consensus and motivate to provide a program that is very gooood and it geenrates enthusiasm and participation. Thats what I get from being nice and getting along.

 

The alternative.....I could be a by the book rules butt head all the time. The result.....the troop would probably go from 36 to maybe a dozen, I would loose parent help and adult volunteers and committee. I would build a reputation of being out of touch and I would be routinely ignored as being a pain in the rear insisting on issues others universally regard as trivial and un important. I would not only loose numbers but I would loose credibility, communication and the ability to be an effective leader. When I need to be "Not Nice" or have to somewhat ignore getting along for making a decision and strongly persuading committee to do something it will be on an important issue, not something so trivial about 100% by the book Uniform rules. As I noted, in my troop we had almost no one even weraing a class A shirt to troop meetings, we have gone to most wearing a class A shirt, neckerchief and decent pants of some type, combed hair, shirts buttoned and tucked and more improvements all the time. The boys actually feel like part of something now, that they are not just the local youth camping group but they are scouts adn are identifying with their troop, thier patrol and developing a higher level of respect than we had before. With the uniform inspections and patrol points it will probably go even higher and be a scout motivated deal....great ! But it is going to take time. There is no way I am going to start inssiting we need to be 100% by the boook on uniforms. For one thing I have no real power to enforce it, I can be a jerk and mandate it but many will choose to do what they want anyway. If I become a pain in the rear about it many will start to leave and I will become ignored and avoided. I won''t get 100% perfect uniform compliance and I will undermine my ability to grow the troop andprovide an otherwise quality program.....what kind of victory would that be ?

 

The scouts are getting a good boy led program in our troop, tehy fund raise to 100% self suffiency, I have a productive and cohesive group of adults, teh boys earn their advancements and get plent of outdoor experience, community service and realtions with other community organizations and many other positives. If the boys show up in Jeans...oh well, sharp green or Khaki pants would look better but we may get to that point. If the boys eventuall show up mostly with sharp appropriate pants but they are not the overpriced BSA issue one, I really don''t care and no one else does in our troop and I am not going to be able to do anything to get them to care. I fI try to insist that we are not by the book I will get ignored and laughed off. A big price to payfor insisting on a battle I can''t enforce or win. So I will continue to improve the troop in every way we can as an adult and youth team and if the boys wear Jeans or Walmart green cargo pants, I could care less. It is the happy scouts who are enjoying and getting benefir from the program I am concerned about, not adherence to strict guideleines on some piece or paper that no one can enforce anyway. I don''t see district or council coming in and lecturing us or having me fired because we are not 100% uniform compliant, and if they did lecture us, almost everyone would say...oh that''s nice, thanks for stopping by and then would do nothing any different. I guess I could be on a wanted poster somewhere for the Uniform Police, but since I can''t be arrested for the infraction, what does it matter. A strong unit is more important than trivializing over un importanrt details.

[Lisabob]

"Being a good person is much more important than being a nice person."

 

True. On the other hand, the two are not mutually exclusive most of the time, and is uniforming really the best place to draw this line in the sand? One might think that the differences between "good" and nice" are far more weighty in other contexts than which pair of socks a person is wearing. Perhaps that''s just because to me, the opposite of "good" in the sense you seem to imply is "evil" and I don''t think a person''s clothing choices come close to meriting such a judgment.

 

 

[Nessmuk]

Your Right LisaBob - Clothing is not something to draw a line in the sand about.. And - The scout uniform is not "just clothing" either - just as the American Flag is not simply red white and blue cloth. Arrangement of those pieces of cloth makes the entire object take on a different meaning..

 

And "meaning" is what this is about.

 

To many, the scout uniform is just clothing, but to some, the uniform has real meaning - it is a symbol. I would not be off-base by saying the Scout Uniform is not the only one we could discuss in this context - but that''s where I am.

 

And it''s not just the uniform ! It''s the "Whatever" crowd that seems to have gained a foothold in the movement.

 

HighCountry- Sounds like things are going well in "your program", but if you are selecting from the Scout methods cafeteria style, then you don''t have a real Scouting program - period. It sounds like you are working in the right direction, but you will eventually learn that you and the group will always hit lower than you aim..

 

If you settle for half a uniform you will likely be at half and usually less.. Sounds like you are onto the right approach to inspire them to wear the uniform -as opposed to insisting and stomping feet that they wear it.. You will find that setting a solid and high (but realistic) expectation combined with proper inspiration will be better than being a "unform fanatic" - Again it''s not about the uniform - but what it means..

 

I would not (and do not) advocate a UP approach to solid uniforming - Sounds like you have a preconceived notion here.. It also is not about a "rulebook" as you put it. The methods of Scouting are not rules.. They are the substance of the movement. Well IMO the real substance is the membership who embrace the ideals and methods.. That includes the uniform.. There''s that "ideals" thing popping up again..

 

Getting along is good..until you "get along" with the wrong guy/group one day.. It''s a far better trip when living by principle than to "get along".

 

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

"Sounds like you are onto the right approach to inspire them to wear the uniform -as opposed to insisting and stomping feet that they wear it.. You will find that setting a solid and high (but realistic) expectation combined with proper inspiration will be better than being a "unform fanatic" "

 

I could be wrong, but that sounds awfully close to the honey & vinegar thing. Hey, but what do I know?