Scouts no longer wear the Scout Uniform!

[Trevorum]

Oh, come on, FScouter. You know that we are just being slyly tongue-in-cheek when we talk about the UP! You've got a thankless job for sure, but someone has do do it.

 

However, I DO find it highly ironic that the so-called "field uniform" is seemingly designed for, as you put it, "troop meetings, courts of honor, and indoor activities, and special outdoor occasions ... ". It's too bad that BSA does not have a uniform that is designed for, well, the field!

[FScouter]

Tongue-in-cheek? I dont think so. The uniform police term is a guilt response. It is always used in conjunction with defending substitutions such as walmart pants, or defending troop-defined uniforms consisting of a shirt, or defending lame excuses for not wearing it for appropriate occasions, or general complaining about the BSA uniform, and such. The term is always directed toward those that promote uniform practices outlined in the Handbooks and other publications.

[kraut-60]

I am posting in support of F-Scouter here, those who refer to properly uniformed scouters as the "UP" should be ashamed of their conduct and their attitude.

 

The uniform METHOD works...if you work it! The troop I serve in had a Court of Honor this past monday. Our SPL had a uniform inspection scheduled as part of the opening. Our new scout patrol (8 boys) had 4 scouts in full uniform and the other four in shirts and neckers.

 

The boys who werent in full uniform were talking among themselves after the CoH and comments were heard such as "I'm getting those switchbacks, man are they cool" and requests to parents to get them the rest of the uniform parts they were lacking.

 

These boys HAD NOT been required to wear a uniform....but the SPL/ASPL and PLs set the example in our troop by wearing the uniform, and the adult members of the TC and the SM/ASM wear a full uniform....BY CHOICE.

 

Uniforming is NOT one of the aims of Scouting...just one method, but it is a method that provides a means to allow the Scouts to present themselves to the public as members of what is recognized nearly everywhere as a POSITIVE organization for youth to better themselves while bettering their community and nation by becoming better citizens.

 

These boys can develop a sense of personal pride by wearing the Boy Scout uniform, along with giving them a place to display their accomplishments in advancement(a method) as well as where they've been, what patrol they belong to..(hmmm, yet another method) and what position of responsibility they currently are serving in.

 

Seems to me that the uniform method can tie in with quite a lot of the methods as well as serve as a source of personal pride in oneself and encourage a feeling of belonging....being a member of something people respect,...after all, most of the general public knows what a scout uniform looks like and they probably figure any boy wearing it is likely "Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Courteus...."

 

 

[Trevorum]

I can't speak for anyone else of course, but in my experience, the term "Uniform Police" has been used to describe someone who is excessively concerned with very minor details of the uniform rather with than the gross infractions you describe.

 

The following are examples I have personally witnessed which I would describe as UP: pointing out that the troop numerals are placed too low on the sleeve; pointing out that adults should not be wearing patrol patches; claiming that a council issued special CSP is not intended for uniform wear; insisting that a Scout remove his "Texacan" interpreter strip and that an adult remove his "Overtrained" strip because these are not official BSA items; insisting that an Scout or Scouter remove his JSP after 6 months. These are just silly (IMHO) and not worth being confrontational about.

 

On the other hand, (believe it of not) I myself have been accused of being a regulation uniform fanatic. As SM, I was famous for rescheduling SM conferences if the fellow arrived in less than full uniform. I was known to (politely) point out to new adult volunteers that, in this troop, camo pants will not be worn with the uniform shirt. I think my low point was the CoH in which our SPL arrived wearing pink pants. I swear they were pink. There wasn't time for him to go home and change and I did not have the heart to tell him to sit it out. I did use the ghastly image later in a SM minute (but kindly and with good humour) and the episode has found its way into troop lore as the infamous pink pants story.

 

[BrentAllen]

Trev,

"Field" uniform is not official BSA language.

 

If pointing out emblems, patches or numbers have been put on improperly makes one a member of the Uniform Police, then send me my UP hat. The few times I have done this, it is only with a member of my unit or someone I know pretty well, and is done in a very polite manner. I usually will ask if they know the patch is in the wrong position. I certainly don't tell them they must remove or correct the patch.

 

This summer, I have seen a handful of Wood Badge'rs wearing their beads over t-shirts, which is specifically addressed in the Insignia Guide. Most have been 4-beaders. Some were working at camp, and going to eventually put their uniform shirt on for dinner. Others were just over at the Council offices. Same thing here with the example being set at the top - if 4-beaders are wearing them with t-shirts, everyone else is going to think it is ok and follow their lead. I've always wanted to put a set of beads on the front of my Expedition hat - maybe I will do so and wear it in front of these folks and see what they say.

[evmori]

The "UP" are those who feel the uniform is more important than any other facet of Scouting & use every chance they get to point out how correct their uniform is while everyone else's isn't. Those who live in glass houses ..............

 

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gonzo1]

Is uniforming important? Of course!

Is it worth losing sleep? No!

 

I don't think I consider myself part of the UP, but the things that bug me the most are when people wear things on the collars. A female ADC in our council wears an eagle pin on each collar because her sons are Eagle Scouts. She admits it's wrong but does it anyway. I jokingly call her "Colonel".

 

I'm glad that we have active scouts in our troop and most are wearing the shirt and neckerchief, some wear pants, belt, shirt and neckerchief.

 

 

 

[Nessmuk]

I have to chime in and say that in my experiences as a Scout and now as a Scouter, consistent uniform issues are an indicator of other Unit and individual "issues".. The clothes are not a litmus test, but they do 'make the man' as they used to say.. Too many maybe well intentioned (we know where that heads) folk whine about this exception and that - instead of just owing up to the fact that the full uniform is the right way to go - end of story... On the so-called "poor boy" scene, I most often see the motivated scouts in proper uniform - indepenedent of $$ -- If they have the right attitude, they (and their parents) MAKE IT Happen. I have started a uniform box in my Pack for those who really can not afford it and we work out a plan .. I "love it" when the parents who buy their kid literally thousands of dollars of every toy imaginable go to Walmart to get blue pants (because the Cub pants cost $40 - or worse they wear jeans).. It's attitude! That being said, I am not thrilled where the BSA has taken the uniform since the 80's, but I still wear it.. I am a very traditional BP Scout kind of guy, but I wear the uniform correctly (not making up my own to suit and excuses to go with it) and yet advocate for change respectfully. Recent moves to switchback pants and the new Cub Pants say that the uniform people are starting to get a clue.. The features of the uniform need to be tied to principles, pragmatism and philosophy (like BP did when he assembled uniforms for his Scouts on teh veldt in Africa).. In the Oscar De La Rente thing, the BSA was like a wayward meandering lost soul -- looking for style instead of substance..

[EMTBasic]

I agreed previously that wearing the uniform ISN'T a requirement... but it DOES help us as leaders and parents to set a higher standard. And given the things about kids today that we all hear, read about, and live with, I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

Personally, I think kids today NEED to have more of a sense of pride in themselves, and NEED to be able to see & think of themselves as part of a group that others view with respect. We need to challenge them more, and we need to stop being afraid to set some standards and goals that both the scouts AND their parents should be held to.

 

If you want to look at it from a strictly practical point of view- when I was a scout, we were required to wear our uniforms whenever we traveled. That meant to and from every camping trip. I BELIEVE our parents were told that it was for insurance purposes; but whatever the reason, we looked sharp AND we looked like a cohesive unit. We switched to "civvies" when we got to where we were going; but we had our uniforms with us, and we would wear them whenever we were representing ourselves as a troop. Of course, sashes, medals, etc were reserved for BoR and CoH.

 

Like I said previously, I'm a fan of the KISS principle. As such, I'm surprised to see how active this thread is, because I really believe this boils down to a simple matter of pride. Although I will now be wearing a somewhat larger size than when I made my Eagle, I will still wear my uniform with pride; and I hope my Den Leaders, step-son and the other boys in my care will accept the example, and learn something from it.

[MomToEli]

I''ve read several references in this thread to the effect that the uniform is not required by BSA.

 

Can someone please explain to me, then, what is meant on pg 8-4 of the Cub Scout Leader Book when it says "Cub Scouts and adult leaders should wear their uniforms to all den and pack events." And again on pg 12-11, "The Cub Scout and adult leader uniforms are suitable for Scouting functions and should be worn at all Scouting meetings and activities." And finally, again on pg 12-11 "The uniform helps you achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting, so you will want to make sure that all of the boys and adult leaders in your pack are completely and correctly uniformed."

 

This is becoming an issue in our den, as a matter of fact, and I''d like to make sure that I know of what I speak before I open my mouth and make a fool of myself 8-)

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

MomToEli (your last name isnt Manning, is it?)

 

While it is true that a uniform is not required by the BSA, lets be sure we understand the reasoning. Uniforms are not required by the BSA so that the lowest level of income families can still be included in the program. One should not take the approach that because the uniform is not required, it is optional and therefore I will wear my Hilferger sweats and classic Air Jordans to the den meeting. The uniform is supposed to remind the youth that he/she is in a world organization of youth who believe in the same ideals.

 

If a member of your den cannot afford a uniform that is one thing, if the issue is a child who rebels against authority by nature or a parent who doesnt see the need while signing the youth up for cello lessons with the understanding that time missed during the family''s annual month long Carribean Cruise wont be held against him is another. What sort of issues do you have?

 

[MomToEli]

Nope, not Manning

 

The latter - kids who have uniforms already even. In our Pack, uniform means shirts, neckerchief, slide, jeans, shoes/socks. I''ve been having kids show up in all kinds of attire. Ones coming in their baseball uniforms don''t bother me so much because at least they are trying to fit both in. But I have a couple of parents who want the kids to be able to wear t-shirts (we have no Pack Class B shirts at this point) and whatever. One mom told me her son doesn''t like to wear pants that don''t have elastic waist, so that''s why he can''t wear jeans. In an effort to get away from sweat pants of varying colors, those slick looking gym-type shorts, etc. and the rowdiness that tends to go along with it, I informed my little Bears that since they are getting older that we were going to start wearing our uniforms properly and we''d start having uniform inspections this year.

 

Our Pack has a uniform closet for any child that needs help - used shirts can be provided free. I''d even pay out of my own pocket for a new shirt if a used one weren''t available for a boy who wants to participate who can''t afford the shirt.

 

As Den leader, I wear full uniform, down to my lovely green and red socks to every meeting and event. My assistant (Mom with the zipper and button sensitive kiddo) wears her shirt with jeans or shorts. She does always wear her shirt, though.

 

I''d like them in uniform because there is a definite difference in their behavior, but I don''t want to be atilla the hun about it ...

 

It''s hard sometimes to know what battles to pick ...

[Gunny2862]

Aye, Mom to Eli,

And there''s the rub, I''d love to throw the old SM hat on pretend its a DI cover and insist on the uniform worn my way. But its really about developing self-discipline in the boys - at the Boy Scout level. Sure I could let it go completely too - and let the boys decide - but is that Scouting? It''s definitely ignoring one of the methods. Yes if I insisted, I could probably get my way but I would also be throwing up a huge roadblock on getting other things that need to be done taken care of.

 

For now, I''m in full field uniform at every opportunity,(working the adult association angle) bringing up to the SPL that we need to hold a uniform inspection in the near future and talking about how anything else is inappropriate at Eagle CoH''s which are upcoming, and learning how to run JLT on the next batch of POR holders - and you can bet uniforming will be stressed during that course.

 

I''ve already got a few thinking right but they are trying to overcome the inertial of past habits and the still current wanting to go the other way peer pressure. Some of the negative peer pressure(and this really annoys me) is coming from the children of the Cubmaster of one of our "feeder" packs. I haven''t been to one of their meetings but I now wonder if he wants the cubs in full uniform - or if he accepts them the way he sends his boys to me.

[highcountry]

I hear the "pick your battles" comment. In the seventies when I was a scout, there was a different prevailing attitude in society that was less leinient, some things were pretty much expected. As kids when we had an issue or wanted to get some wiggle room be it homework deadlines, or attending church or wearing a uniform or be back home by a certain time or whatever, we found adults universally took a pretty hard stand. We knew what teh rules were and that you had to stay in the guideliens or else. If we wanted to losen things a bit we also knew we would have to live with the consequences, it did not matter if the adult involved was our parent, a neighbor, a teacher or the minister or scoutmaster, adults lived by this approach. Today in our "tolerant and understanding" society people who spell out the rules and then expect people to go by those rules are labeled as old fashioned, intolerant too rigid.

Given that scenario if you are teh scoutmaster who tries to diligently uphold uniform standards to the letter you are viewed as out of touch, you get grief from parens, complaining from scouts and if you are too rigid subject yourself to a sort of backlash.....less uniform wering or even scouts leaving the troop. You are teh odd man out as the parent, the teacher, teh minister, the neighbor etc are no longer sticking to their guns but you are.

 

We are flexible, which is a long ways from when I started as SM a year ago. At that point we had at best, 15% of scouts wearing a uniform shirt, half of those with a neckerchief. Pants, belts, hats and socks were out of the question. We had maybe 25% wearing a class a shirt at COH. Of those weraing a shirt, un buttoneed and un tucked shirts were the norm. The scoutmaster''s sones were among those without uniform at all, some kids had dirty jeans and t shirts with holes, rat''s nest hair and some wore really goofy hats, orange ball caps on backwards, flip flops etc.

 

We are at teh point now where 75% wear a class A shirt and neckerchief to troop meetings and everyone wears that as a minimum to COH, socks and belts are showing up more and more as well. We have created a points system for patrols and uniform inspection is a major part of the points system, every 4 months we designate a new Honor Patrol for the coming quarter based on points and they get to skip out on KP and other little rewards tehy like. The boys have accepted teh uniform again and the complaints from boys and some parents have ceased, they are ratcheting up uniform wearing on thier own bit by bit.

 

We generally do not wear class A to and from campouts, these are frequently many hours in teh car and when we arrive they need to be reeady to pitch tents, cook dinner etc so they can be comfortable with class b''s when traveling. With this approach we have nbeen able to turn much around in a short time frame.

 

Right now we have no one with BSA pants, some of us wear green or olive pants and this small change is gradually dis-placing jeans but it is a slow change. I have no problem if the pants are not the overpriced BSA variety, if they look sharp and of good color and look like they belong I feel it is a step above jeans, so much the better. A forest green set of shap cargo pants from Walmart or an outfitter is better than dirty hole infested jeans and at $20 a pair, a much better deal than the BSA pants at teh prices they ask for those.

 

 

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Well, about now it needs to be said, the uniform is the uniform. No unit, Cub Pack or Boy Scout Troop has the ability to say what constitutes the uniform. they just have the ability to wear the uniform incorrectly. Jeans and a uniform shirt are not a Troops uniform, the troop is not in uniform and should not try to pretend it is. Unless the youth has a medical reason for wearing elastic banded pants, what is wrong with the pants other than its different?

 

If your unit cannot see itself properly uniformed, there are multiple reasons for it, economic is one, not being able to follow directions is another (ok inflammatory on my part). Its about fighting battles that can be won, and I am afraid the uniform is one that is sliding full speed down the abyss