Eagle Problems....BIG

[ASM915]

Ed,

I know that the letters aren't mandatory. I'll bet that troop would sit there and try to argue that point way beyond this young man's time frame, achieving what the committee seems to have set out to do.

 

Summer,

I would be surprised if the committee meeting would take more then an hour, especially if the committee has already made up it's mind to back the SM. If the SM opens his mouth and addresses your son at the meeting, when the SM is finished, have your son inform the SM that your son is using this as his SM conference, hand him the open book, and ask for a signature.

 

I'm sure that the DAC would be willing to accept a call from your son that evening until around 10:00PM. Who knows, maybe the DAC will start the process right then and there, and ask to talk with the SM and CC.

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if the DAC attended the meeting as a spectator. Talk about shaking up the SM and Committee. He could then stands up at the end of the meeting and inform the committee that he is starting the process while he is there and interviews the SM, CC and your son on the spot, and then ask the committee for a copy the boys records. Eagle92, ever seen a SM instantly turn the color of his uniform? LOL.

 

Summer, tell your son I wish him the best. Things will turn out alright for him.

 

Also remember, when this is all over, talk with the Institutional Representative (the head of your chartering organization). Most stay way in the background, and don't really know what goes on at the troop/pack level, unless if they are really involved. They may take a look at the troop's leadership, and decide to make some changes if this situation is a recurrent problem. They have the power to make any changes that they deem necessary with the leadership, not the SM or Committee Chair.

 

[Eagle92]

ASM stole my thunder, I was also going to suggest inviting the DAC to the meeting. And ASM is correct in that having a DAC mention "Appeals Process" does have some psychological shock effect. Plus in the appeals process the benefit of the doubt is given to the scout, at least my limited experiences.

[GernBlansten]

The records necessary to complete the Eagle application can be obtained directly through the council by you. Just go to there and ask for your scout's records. Our council has no problem with this. It will have everything that the troop has submitted. Every merit badge, advancement, significant dates. I'd do that before the meeting. I'd also have the Eagle application filled out to the point of signatures. Whether the SM has realized this or not, he has done

 

Realistically, be prepared for the committee to back up the SM. At that point, I would wash my hands of the troop. Just politely say thank you, and leave the meeting. No further contact with them is necessary. The only way this scout is going to advance is through the appeals process and will be successful.

[ASM915]

92,

Just read your post after I sent you the PM. Sorry for stealing the thunder. We'll have to get together at NOAC. I'll return it then.

 

I'm sure the committee will recognize DAC (in uniform would be nice), but I bet they would be going crazy trying to figure out who WilVick's NESA attorney (in uniform) is. they could both stand up, one stating he is there to represent the District, and the other staing he is there representing the NESA and the scout. I'ld love to be a fly on the wall in that room.

 

Trouble causer, me? NOOOO, not really. Honestly! I just don't like Scouts getting railroaded over BS, and think of nice, polite, and diplomatic ways to put the egotistical wannabe leaders in their place.

[mdsummer45]

Thanks all--When I spoke with the DAC he told me he was going to contact the troops advancement chairman and the troops Eagle advisor to see what was going on. The DAC sounded like an older man (perhaps retired, I called at 9:30a) I asked if he had an email address so my son could contact him if neccessary. He said don't have one ..don't own a computer...I laughed!!! He told me that the first step was for the troop to hold this mtg and then he would get involved if need be..he muttered something like..if the committee turns him down then I'll have to start this whole process..in a tone of ...man I don't want to go there...that is when the DAC told me he was going to contact the troop AC and see what was going on. Sounds like the DAC might take the back road to encourage the committe to vote in favor of my son.. (Okay, maybe just a mom's wishful thinking :^))

[BadenP]

Even with all this great advice it saddens and sickens me that any boy should have to go through all this political cr*p because of some ego trip by one or more adult scouters.

 

Some may argue that this experience will help build the boys maturity, but I see it as poor quality leadership that seems to be permeating the scouting program these days. Unfortunately these type of occurences seem to be on the increase. Ms. Summer I truly hope your son gets his Eagle, good luck. If necessary use all the appeals at your disposal. After this is all over I really hope the council executive sends a strong letter to that scoutmaster reminding him what being a scouter is truly all about.

[mdsummer45]

One other thing...After thinking about this so much for the past few days it has occurred to me that the SM is really refusing to sign off on #2 requiremnt...demonstrates the Scout Oath and Scout law in everyday life. In our troop that requirement is always signed off on by the SM at the SM conference. How does he know whether or not my son lives the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his EVERYDAY life...the SM only sees him once a week for 1.5hrs and perhaps once a month on a weekend trip. What about the other 166.5 hrs in the week...yet the SM feels he can make a judgment of my sons character..I do not understand that at all.

[GernBlansten]

Summer, that requirement is so subjective that it has caused numerous threads here. I view it as a rubberstamp unless the scout has demonstrated a measurable gross violation of scout spirit (like a criminal conviction). The problem is, scout spirit is based on one's subjective opinion, not an objective criteria.

[ASM915]

Summer,

If your son's SM and leadership is similar to ours, depending on the size of your town and school system, I'll bet the SM hears a lot through the grapevine. Or he may give the coaches, band and choir directors, teachers, etc, that he knows personally, and that a Scout is in contact with, a call and ask how the Scout is doing in school and his other activities. Or he may ask older Scouts how another Scout is doing around school, or how he acts outside of Scouts and school. Don't forget about Myspace and Facebook. They have been the demise of many teens' character.

 

Several of our Committee Members' wives are teachers or secretaries at the local or parochial schools in our town. Plus some of the dads are coaches. Talk about tight little circles. Believe me, if the SM is worth his weight in gold, he has his network and knows what his Scouts are doing, whether they or their parents realize it or not.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[Beavah]

Yah, geez, folks. Take a deep breath!

 

There's a process here that both this troop and this young man and the DAC are tryin' to respect. That process doesn't include spammin' every official with our sense of outrage.

 

So far, this troop has done everything its supposed to do.

 

The Scoutmaster did his part, he informed the boy of his decision and his avenue of appeal. He's not obligated to do that in writin', or to fax a replacement of a lost letter while traveling. The troop is doin' what it should, it's settin' up a committee meeting to hear the appeal. The DAC is doin' what he should, he's lettin' the troop process play out and then preparing to deal with any appeal at the district level.

 

And the lad is doin' his part, respectfully using the process to pursue an appeal.

 

All this is exactly what is supposed to happen.

 

There's no call for phoning the IH, the SE, the national office, the cops, or da pope. There's no need to be badmouthin' the SM, or windin' the parent up, or relivin' real or imagined failures in adult or youth communication. There's no need to try to end-run whatever the normal process is in the troop/district for obtaining reference letters. We here in internet land have no idea what "the rest of the story" is, eh? We have to trust that our fellow scouters are good folks, and that they'll allow the process to play out the way it should.

 

mdsummer45, the Scoutmaster gets to make the call on a lot of things, even ones that are subjective. Just like the referee in a soccer match or the theater advisor who chooses the lead in the play, or the teacher who gives a grade on an essay. None of 'em succeed in makin' the right call 100% of the time. But often the measure of our character is how we behave toward them when they don't.

 

Your son is doin' a great job so far. Let him keep doing a great job. He's a young adult, give him the room to grow into the part. The skills and the courtesy with which he approaches this challenge will stay with him for many, many years. Relax. Scoutin' has a lot of good people in it, and the process is being used properly.

 

As far as your son's question about da school counselor, I think that's a fine question that either your son or his counselor should address by calling the Committee Chair.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[GernBlansten]

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

After the appeal and the EBOR, make sure you send every leader in the troop a nice invitation to the Court of Honor.

[mdsummer45]

hey all...we are on the right road... we have spoken to our DD and he knew all about my sons issue even before I gave him my name. They are already talking about this issue at the district level. He gave us specific things to do before the meeting and after the meeting should the decision of the committee not be in my sons favor. Additionally,the DD told us to call him Tuesday morning to let him know the out come of the meeting. I also got the impression while talking to the DD that the SM is not the "golden boy" that I thought he was. I feel so much better after speaking with him. My son is prepared. I'll keep you all posted as to how things turn out and if I need more support I know I can turn to all of you. You've been wonderful!!!!!! I'll continue to check in to see if there are any posts but I need to let go of this for awhile.

[BrentAllen]

I'm with Beavah on this one - we only know half the story. I'd be real interested in hearing the SM's side, what he would have to say.

 

The SMs I know put in so many hours that if they kept count, they'd end up in the funny farm. They are willing to do whatever they can for every one of their Scouts to succeed. If any started out on an ego trip, they fell off that horse in the first couple of months, when they saw how much work it took.

 

So, with the limited information I've seen, I'm willing to give my fellow SM the same benefit of doubt that everyone is giving the Scout. There may be some act or issue from the past that this SM just can't get past - it has crossed his threshold where he says this Scout and his actions don't merit Eagle. I would hope if that is the case, it is something serious.

 

Are there issue or actions that would keep me from awarding a Scout Eagle? Yes, I'm sure there are. Drugs, criminal activity, for a few. I bet all SMs have that threshold; we just don't know where it is for this SM and what triggered it.

[mdsummer45]

I really feel the need to reply to BrentAllens post. Therein lies the problem....my son does not know EXACTLY what he has done to cross this SM. All that has been told is that "my perception(exact word)is that you do not understand the Scout Spirit ..Scout law." No examples or specific events have ever been given to my son as to why the SM has this perception. My son has no criminal record, does not do drugs and does not drink( no I am not a blind parent who thinks their child is perfect..but we have a good line of communication.) He has never had any issues at school...he is an honor student. top 7% of his class, 4 honor societies, vice president of 2 of them, is a tutor for GT and AP students in certain subjects, has the trust and respect of the school administration to work openly on the schools web site and other sensitive work. My son has sent this SM emails asking for a written reason as to why the SM is refusing to sign off on the SM conference.

 

 

"So that I may have a clearer understanding of your position, I am requesting a written statement from you listing the reasons that you feel that you can not sign off on these requirements. I would like to have this statement prior to the troop committee meeting so that I can address all of your concerns in a thoughtful manner."

 

 

This is the reply my son received for the SM:

 

 

"If I understand the current policy correctly, I'm required by the BSA to putting my thoughts and concerns in writing and to provide the committee explanation for my course of action.

 

That written statement will be available to you at that meeting. I assume at that time the two documents (Nov 2008 letter and addressing committee) and your input from the meeting will be forward to the District for their records."

 

Is this SM telling my son in a veil way that this special committee mtg is only for show and that my son does not have a chance with them....or...are all troop meeting records forwarded to the District. If the committee overturn the SM decision why would the documents need to go to the District level at all? (Any thoughts from any of you would be appreciated...)

 

Also my son had requested another copy of the November 2008 letter and the SM is refusing to give him another copy prior to the meeting. The SM asked my son what happened to the original copy..did he lose it..my son said no, I gave it to my mom for her to review and she threw it away.

 

Okay, my fault, I threw it away, what is the BIG deal here give the kid a copy of something you already gave him...why is the SM refusing to do this.... my opinion....PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY!!!!!!!

 

[evmori]

It really makes no difference what your son did to cross this SM. The question is has he completed everything he needs to complete to become an Eagle. If he has, the SM Conference should be held & signed-off. And let's not forget, a SM Conference isn't a pass/fail requirement. All the Scout has to do is participate.