Eagle Problems....BIG

[Vicki]

mdsummer, please don't get distracted by my reply, which was to JoeBob. Note that I was specifically saying NOT to contact the COR (Chartered Organization Rep), because it's beyond doing anything about the SM (Scout Master). It's about getting your son his Eagle.

 

With seven weeks and counting, I'd do what others have suggested in terms of the district chain of command. Now. I believe someone suggested the DAC (District Advancement Chair) or the DE (District Executive).

 

You might want to have a list of these acronyms handy. We Scouters tend to use them, assuming other people know what they mean. No disrespect intended - most human associations tend to develop their own "code."

 

Vicki

 

 

[Vicki]

Crossing e-mails, just read your most recent post. I believe, as someone else posted, that you must have everything BUT the EBOR and following process done prior to his 18th birthday.

 

That means the SM conference. It's my understanding that you NEED to have that resolved prior to his 18th birthday.

 

Vicki

[Beavah]

Mr FD told me that my son can request a District EBOR, Council EBOR and National EBOR after his 18th birthday. Does that sound right to you all?

 

Yah, mdsummer45, yeh might have missed my last note if you were typin' at the same time.

 

The SM is refusin' to sign off on the lad for Eagle.

 

First Appeal is therefore to the Troop Committee.

 

Second Appeal is to the district, just as the Field Director said. The FD is another executive "above" the District Director. Like the District Director, the FD won't be directly involved in the process.

 

After that, your son or you can appeal to the council, and then to National, just as your FD indicated.

 

So the information you've been given is correct. The first step on the road, though, is the troop committee. And that may well be all that's needed to get the job done.

 

Beavah

 

[mdsummer45]

My son is in 4 honor society in high school and the vice president of 2 of them. He has participated in a sport since 10th grade. In addition to the 4 honor societies he is a member of other school clubs and participates in many competitions. He is ranked in the top 7% of his class. He has been accepted into all of the colleges he applied to and has received merit scholarships to all of them(we are lucky) he was also selected as a finalist in 2 very selective scholarship program at one of the colleges(we are still waiting to hear). He is planning to study Computer Engineering in college and his high school has trusted him with special computer related projects (ie maintaining the schools web page). Recently he has help his uncle's church with cooking and delivering meals for Habitat for Humanity. So....I do not think he would be where he is in school today if he was not "living the Boy Scout Oath and Law in his daily life".

[John-in-KC]

OK, Ms Summer, we're on track.

 

I think your sons apology to Mr SM is probably in the box of being a gentleman. We're at the point of what's done is done there.

 

I take back some of my last post. Do email Mr SM. Do carbon copy the committee chair. BUT, your separate email to the Committee Chair should be:

 

Mr SM has refused my son his Eagle SM Conference and the signature on his Eagle app. I believe my son has already contacted you, and you will visit with him on this issue. As I understand Scouting policy, the conference must be done before he turns 18. I trust you will visit with him promptly, and give him a decision promptly. If your decision is NO, I trust you will give him and us the reasons so we can either work the issue, or start the formal appeals process.

 

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When I was a committee chair, one of my tasks was to have the back of my SM. Good units have good working relationships between the SM (the program guy) and the committee chair (the support guy). If their partnership and working relationship is good, do not be surprised if your son does not get a SM signature by the Committee in lieu of the SM on his Eagle app.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[mdsummer45]

After rereading these posts and trying to remember exactly what was said in the letter... ...I think the SM in some way has giving my son a SM conference(it just has to happen as some one say its not a pass/fail thing) perhaps the sticking point is that in our troop the SM is also the person who decides whether or not the scout has meet the requirement of...'demonstrates scout spirit by living the scout oath and scout law in your everyday life'... the more I think about it the more I think that is the issue...Mr SM does not feel my son has meet this requirement (I do not think he gave my son any specific examples) but i do remember Mr SM used the phrase... It is my perception that you do not understand the scout law and perceptions are hard to change...or words to that effect. So that is why I think there is going to be a special troop committee meeting. Even though in the letter Mr SM clearly stated that in this troop he was the only person who could sign off on that requirement he is now passing the buck so to speak.

[mdsummer45]

John in KC

 

The CC and the SM are of one mind, they do have each others back. I think this special committee meeting will be for show and I have prepared my son for a negative outcome. He wants to see this to the end.

[Lisabob]

It is not uncommon for the Scoutmaster to reserve the right to sign off on scout spirit for himself, especially at higher ranks. This is frequently done to ensure that some boy who is not doing so well with the scout oath and law, doesn't do an end-run around the SM and find the most compliant/clueless person available to sign his book. It also allows for a stronger mentoring relationship to develop between SM and scout (when used properly).

 

You're probably right that this special committee session won't yield positive results. Make sure your son knows how important it is to keep his cool and that he can politely, pro-actively, and articulately discuss how he demonstrates scout spirit in his daily life. He should (calmly, politely) put the burden on the committee to give him a specific set of reasons why they don't think he has met this requirement, along with their views on if/how he could QUICKLY fix that.

 

My question to the others: If the boy does not have a sign off for scout spirit, can he appeal that to the district/council? I thought the appeal process was only for the SM conference signature and not for scout spirit? If "scout spirit" cannot be appealed and the SM doesn't want to budge because he does not believe the boy is "Eagle material" then what? At that point, is arm twisting from higher up the chain the only option?

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Again, I am 1100 miles west of my copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. Would another regular on the board check me, please?

 

I believe ACP&P, when the SM refuses his signoff on the Eagle app, allows the Committee Chair to sign off for him, in the case of a unit appeal.

 

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Certainly, when a formal appeal is started, the DAC has the resources to find folks to cover both the Conference and the BOR. When you start the formal process, I'd tell the DAC quietly that your son is not quite an "aging out" crisis case, but the clock is on the short cycle.

[mdsummer45]

Thank you LisaBob...I hope someone can answer the question Lisabob has just posted...if the troop committee refuses to sign off on scout spirit ..does my son have any recourse regarding the appeals process? I can see them telling my son that it will be impossible for my son to rectify the situation given the short time frame.

[NealOnWheels]

On the Eagle application there is a line for the Scoutmaster aand the Committee Chairman to sign.

 

According to ACP&P if either refuses to sign the Scout can still have his Board of Review but the Board of Review can consider the lack of signatures in their decision.

 

Time to fill out the application and see what happens.

 

For mdsummers benefit ACP&P="Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" #33088(This message has been edited by NealOnWheels)

[tonys]

This might be an option

when I took over as Scoutmaster there was a youth that was not deserving of eagle (in my mind) the former scoutmaster wanted to try to remove the youth prior to my taking over I said I wanted to work with him well bringing weapons (blackjack) Alcohol wrapped up in his sleeping bag (alleged by other youth) Swearing and cursing at me, refusing to listen to the SPL leaving camp after hours (had the whole summer camp staff up looking for him ect. I told him I did not see how I could in good conscience sign him off for scout spirit. the cc saw all of this happen at summer camp and agreed with me as did all present.

so 3 months before his 18th birthday he found another troop and SM to sign his book and got eagle there. right or wrong district never said a word..

[Beavah]

If the boy does not have a sign off for scout spirit, can he appeal that to the district/council? I thought the appeal process was only for the SM conference signature and not for scout spirit?

 

Yah, it's always just treated as the Scoutmaster refusin' to approve the application, eh? Doesn't matter what the reason is. You can appeal if the SM is refusing to endorse for Scout Spirit, or if the SM is refusing to endorse for position of responsibility, or if the SM is refusing to endorse for being active for six months, etc. Or if the SM is refusing to endorse because he doesn't like lads who are taller than he is.

 

It's all the same process. If the "no" for any reason is coming from the SM, then the first level of appeal is the troop committee. Then district, council, national.

 

If the issue is Scout Spirit, then the lad should be prepared to talk with the committee on how he views the Scout Oath and Law, and how he feels he's demonstrated Scout Spirit in his life both inside and outside of Scouting. Part of that can be how he's handled this situation respectfully and courteously. Includin' an apology to his SM for any misunderstandings or unintended "attitude."

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

An Eagle app takes two stops at Council:

 

The first is before the EBOR. The SM has signed it, the Comittee Chair has signed it, and it's cleared for EBOR by the Professional designated the Advancement Adviser as well as the Registrar.

 

IF the SM/Committee refuse to sign off, THEN that is an appealable event. Contact the District Advancement Chair.

 

The second is after the EBOR. The Committee Chair signs off, and the SCOUT EXECUTIVE signs off that all is in accordance with procedure. Then the app goes to National for final screening, processing and issuance of the Eagle credentials.

 

IF the EBOR refuses to sign off, THEN that is an appealable event. Again, contact the District Advancement Chair.

 

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Again, will someone chek me on this against ACP&P?: Even if the SM refuses and the Committee refuses to in due course give an EBOR, the Scout can insist on one, and the Committee must grant.

 

IIRC what few cases I've heard of that go that path, the unit level EBOR usually votes to deny the Eagle. Again, that triggers an appeal process.

 

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I hate to say this, but there is at least one good thing moving here: There should be no surprises at an EBOR. You, and your son, know for certain that he is pushing this task against negative recommendations. Use this for a learning opportunity with him, that sometimes, as Don Schollander once said "The Triumph is worth the Struggle."

[NealOnWheels]

John,

 

You are absolutely right the ACP&P give two scenarios. The first being refusal of the Scoutmaster or Unit Committee to recomend the Scout for a Board of Review. The second is for a Board of Review that does not approve the Scout.

 

Mdsummer, get the application filled out. Ask for the signatures. If you get them great. If you don't contact the District Training Chairman and ask for an appeal.

 

Bring this application to the "Special Committee Meeting" (whatever that is) and ask for the signatures there.(This message has been edited by NealOnWheels)