evmori Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I will apologize once all the facts are out and it is proven this is a sham! I don't think we will ever know all the facts. 1234567 (This message has been edited by a staff member.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiredscouter55 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 WOW....32 pages so far on this topic. Look gang, I know that there has been a lot of speculation as to this whole topic being bogus or a sham and that some of you think that the process has taken longer than an appeal has ever taken. Some of you feel that people outside of the respective council shouldn't have been involved either. Well before we get the boxing gloves out or point any more fingers at one another here is the skinny on all of this. I know one of the key players in this mess and YES it is a real situation that is now in Nationals hands. Yes, it has run the full gamit from Troop to District, to Council and now to National. NO ONE involved has heard back from national yet concerning their decision. Also, in regards to someone out of council helping the Mom in this unfortunate mess out, well, when you air your needs in a public fourm, you open the door for others to get involved. HOW could a true Scouter resist a call for help from a distressed Mom? Remember that a Scout is Helpful. But the bottom line is that this is a TRUE situation and that sometimes National WILL take this long to fully investigate all the details of an issue like this before rendering their decision. I would like to wish ALL parties involved the very best of luck in this unfortunate mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Fully investigate all the details? What that tells me this is way more to this than we were led to believe by midsummer45. And if it is taking this long, this isn't just a matter of having all the check marks in the correct place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle732 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Beavah, Define your statement "insert themselves into the process". Do you think it's inappropriate for members to comment, offer help, talk with directly or act in any way on behalf of this Scout and his mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiredscouter55 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 evmori, BINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Eagle732, there's nuthin' wrong with members commenting or offering advice on the forum, eh? It's true I get a bit worried when folks in da forums fuel the fire of a dispute. As someone who's spent a lot of time tryin' to help units through issues I generally believe that pouring water on a burning building and calming things down is better than addin' fuel and heatin' people up. Just seems more helpful and prudent to me. But it's OK. What I reckon is inappropriate is for folks with various positions to engage in direct assistance and advocacy for a boy that they don't know in a council they're not a part of and a situation they can't possibly be really familiar with just because they need to scratch a personal itch. If you're a manager for one division of a company, it's really not OK for you to step in and help an employee file a grievance against a manager of a different division 5 states away, eh? You have your own division to run, and your own channels to offer input to headquarters. Yeh don't get mixed up in somebody else's business or disputes. Just inappropriate/discourteous/disloyal or somesuch. Also not really helpful, since yeh don't have a real understanding of the situation or the people involved. Heck, yeh don't even know a thing about that division of the company! Scoutin' isn't about zealous advocacy by outside folks, like a bunch of wannabe attorneys. It's about mentoring kids. The folks who are in a position to do that are those that know the boy and his family and the unit and all the rest. Just my feelin'. Now I reckon there's nothin' wrong with continuing to post just so that we can see if this thread will make it to 35 pages and time out our browsers while we're waitin' for it to load . Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljnrsu Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Beavah, It was both your public and private criticizing and chastising of my actions in June that chased me away and caused me to take a 6 month sabbatical from posting and for the most part reading threads at scouter. I am not going to allow you a second time without responding. Mdsummer came to the forums asking for help and guidance in this unfortunate situation. For the most part she received helpful advice from the posts but there were a few that treated her with scorn and distrust. She was an uninformed parent in BSA rules, policies and procedures yet there were a few who responded as if she had years of experience and had taken BSA training. Yes, I did offer her my help and NO, I do not feel guilty about doing so. I have no doubt that there are many good Scouters in her Council and possibly a couple of bad ones just like there are here on the forums. Who was she supposed to turn to for help, her Troop Committee that enforces a Troop rule that in order to show Scout Spirit a Scout must have X % of attendance at Troop meetings and Y % of attendance at Troop outings? Her DAC, who would given the appeal? Her DC, who has more than a passing relationship with her SM and who eventually chaired the District appeal? Tell me who she was supposed to turn to? "it's still inappropriate for scouters from several states away to insert themselves into the process, and they still should feel chagrined for doin' so". Beavah I believe you have a legal background. Tell me how inserting myself into the process is any different from an Attorney filing a friend of a Court brief on an issue they feel strongly about and want to help correct an injustice without personally knowing the litigant? What about a junior Attorney giving a Senior Partner a brief to read before filing to make sure all points are covered and the is are dotted and the ts are crossed when the Senior know them only as a file#? Or when an Attorney rehearses a closing statement in front some of their staff for input and critique? I do not see any differences between the actions. As a Scouter the Scout Oath, Law and also in my case Eagle Scout Oath are just not words to recite but words that have real meaning. They are words that I try my best to live by 24/7, ...To help other people at all times, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, a living example of the Scout Oath and Law. To this I pledge my sacred honor. As a Scouter I truly believe that we must live by Scout Oath and Law in the same way and manner we expect our Scouts to live by them. To do anything less we are being hypocrites, other wise it becomes do as I say not as I do. Am I embarrassed or regret what I did, no not in the least bit. Will I offer my help again in that way sure will? To do anything less will not be living up to the Scout Oath and Law in my eyes. What does embarrass me are others who add hoops for Scouts to jump through or condone them. What I do find irresponsible is your public reprimand of my action. You should be chagrined for doing so. I learned in NCO school and in Business Management Courses that you praise in public and reprimand in private. Guess you either missed that lecture or choose to ignore it. I probably bent a couple of Scout Laws with this post and will have to try harder to follow them tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertrat77 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I see this saga as a big "whodunit"...we have clues, but do not have all the facts. I doubt that we ever will, and that's okay. Off topic, but I was intrigued by lj's mention of an Eagle Oath...a quick search turned up a series of Eagle oaths, pledges, challenges, and charges. None seem to be an improvement over the scout oath and law that all scouts recite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Who was she supposed to turn to for help, her Troop Committee that enforces a Troop rule that in order to show Scout Spirit a Scout must have X % of attendance at Troop meetings and Y % of attendance at Troop outings? Her DAC, who would given the appeal? Her DC, who has more than a passing relationship with her SM and who eventually chaired the District appeal? Tell me who she was supposed to turn to? ljnrsu, You know for an absolute fact this is the way midsummer45's sons Troop operates? You know this how? If I'm not mistaken, midsummer45 is located in the Maryland area and you are in northern Jersey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Maryland has no fewer than 6 BSA Councils delineated within its convining boundaries. Pg.32... *sigh*(This message has been edited by SSScout) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'm one of the early posters, and have followed this thread for months. SSS, I agree with you. If we stop posting to this thread, it will sink below the fold until Ms Summer gets the final word back from National. We never will know the whole truth. We do the best with the information we're given. I believe one thing: If Ms Summer's boy did not understand that actions have long-term consequences before, he certainly does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljnrsu Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ev, You are correct that mdsummer is in MD and I am in Northern NJ. I did internet search for her Troops website, I have her Unit # and location from Troop denial letter and 2 letters from SM written on Troop stationery that she faxed me. It is not that difficult to verify that you have correct unit website when you have all that information. I did make an error in my posting, in verifying her units website this morning it is not Scout Spirit as I posted but in their definition of Active Scout, on page headed Scout conduct. I admit I did get a little confused since both Troop and District used attendance as part of their basis for not meeting Scout Spirit in their letters of denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Ahh! Active! Big difference from Scout Spirit. And like I posted in a previous post, if this was just a matter of active, this appeal would have taken less than a week. There is something else going on here that is a lot more serious than being active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle732 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 evmori, You said "You know for an absolute fact this is the way midsummer45's sons Troop operates? You know this how? If I'm not mistaken, midsummer45 is located in the Maryland area and you are in northern Jersey." Well I wonder if you might think it's OK for me to comment. I am from the same council, a neighboring district now but I spent many years in her district. I know many of the district level volunteers. I also know the Council rep assigned to this case and I know at least one other Scout from this troop. As far as how her son's troop operates, I don't know how it's being run but I do know how it should operate. You see I took my Scoutmaster Fundamentals with her son's Scoutmaster. The SM is a nice enough guy, dedicated Scouter, holds several positions at the District level. A very involved guy. Having said that I hope the Scout is awarded his Eagle by National, I think he deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Well, Eagle732, as I posted before, this isn't just a matter of making sure all the requirements are checked off. I's bet mdsummer's little Johnny did something he shouldn't have & got caught. Why do I say this? Because this has been going on for over a year and National has had this on appeal way to long to just be making sure all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. And since you know this SM, Eagle732, you should be able to lend a little insight into what is actually going on because I don't think we have even half of the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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