Eagle Problems....BIG

[BadenP]

Sorry Neil but I think you are giving mdsummer false hope. National will not even consider overiding a council SE unless they believe he is part of the problem, which is not the case here. If the boy could produce evidence to put the SM in a prejudicial light it would have already been submitted. Sending in a laundry list of why he feels he deserves Eagle is not sufficent enough to get National to overide an SE's decision, there has to be proof of collusion among all parties involved which again is not the case here.

 

The only way the boy has a chance of a review by National is for him to get a letter from the council SE stating that there were many irregularities in this process and that this case warrants a review, if he will not agree to that then this case is over and National will side with the SE. I know and have dealt with this appeal process twice during my time as a DE and know that National will not even consider an appeal without a recommendation from the SE.

[Eagle92]

One possible, and I do stress POSSIBLE, way to get national to approve is to not only have your sone write his side of the story, turning it into a He Said/She Said situation, but also include how the SM is so involved on the district and council level, that is prejuidices the appeals committees in favor of the SM.

 

Good luck

[mdsummer45]

The council letter came from the council advancement chairman and not the council SE. I have a call into the Council Director of Field Service(DFS) but have not heard back from him. I called him last Thursday and left a messaage requesting him to return my call. Since you have mentioned the role the Council SE plays in this appeal, I guess a call to that gentleman is in order.

[Mamasita]

Eagle92, Are you saying that no one who has heard this appeal at the council or district is capable of making an unbiased decision? There is no one who felt that the scout was in the right and had the fortitude to stand up and be heard? Should they all be fired because it is they who are not living the scout oath and law and not this scout? It seems as if there was the slightest possibility that the scout was in the right, someone would have stepped forward by now.

[Gags]

Probably should have asked this around page 2 or 3 of this thread - but is it too late to transfer to another troop? I can't recall if your son turned 18 in late spring or not.

[Eagle92]

Mamasita,

Unfortunantely it appears as if that may be the case. If the appeal letter did not cover specific challenges by the SM, and the SM is a well known person in the council, then the case is one sided, and if nothign challenges the SM, his word will be taken.

 

Again I strongly recommend a call to the SE to discuss the matter and add additional documentation be forwarded to national

[evmori]

It seems the district and council decisions were made based on one-sided information. Why? It seems that's all they have!

 

I'm starting to wonder why this Scout has not defended himself. The people making these rulings actually have made the correct rulings based on the information they have.

 

I know if I was in the same position as this Scout, I would be defending myself like there was no tomorrow. Unless I had no defense.

 

 

[nolesrule]

"It seems the district and council decisions were made based on one-sided information. Why? It seems that's all they have! "

 

I was wondering about that myself. And it was the district's responsibility 9as the first level of appeal) to solicit information from all parties involved either in the form of a statement or an in-person discussion, not just review what was submitted by the troop. Was the scout solicited for a formal statement or an interview after he requested the appeal?

 

And a general question... what happens if an appeal is not handled in accordance with the appeal procedures?

[ghermanno]

Nolesrules,

 

If it can be proven that the appeals procedure was not followed, Council or National should intervene. Unfortunately, they normally know how to cover their #$$.

 

I am the DAC for a fairly average District (about 14 active Troops) and was given the job to break the "Good O'le Boys network". I reviewed a prospective Eagle Project with the Scout. Found some minor discrepencies and had them corrected. I signed off on the project only to find the Council had assigned a "Good O'le Boy" to handle all Eagle projects. He had a problem with the family and rejected the project and told the school for whom the boy had received approvals that they were NOT to approve it or face litigation. I was then told that I have nothing to do with Eagle advancements in the District.

 

The boy transfered to a diferent District, had a different project approved, and had his EBOR recently. His turned out Okay.

 

This shows how a District or Council can be hamstrung by Good O'le boys and cover their #$$ to alleviate problems later (even going around the DAC &/or CAC). I will NOT accept a Distict appointment next year as I am not a Good O'le boy.

 

YiS,

 

Rick(This message has been edited by ghermanno)

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

From an earlier post, I got the impression that the Scout did personally appear before the District Advancement Committee and have an opportunity to present his case. I think that mdsummer45 mentioned that they even took time to talk with her after the District EBOR/Appeal meeting. Based on this information, it doesn't appear that a decision was made on a one-sided presentation at the district level. Based on Beavah's post concerning initial appeals, it appears that the district did it's job properly.

 

"Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained."

 

How can anyone determine whether or not there was any bias at any level? That seems like an impossible task to determine yet many on this forum seem quick to assume devious ulterior motives on the part of this Scoutmaster and that others in his district or council would aid him, completely ignoring any personal commitment to the Scout Oath and Law that they may have.

 

It seems that the SM provided this Scout with the opportunity for a do-over and was ultimately ignored, thus forcing his hand. In the excerpts from ljnrsu's post that were later edited out, it seems that the Scout's lack of follow-through on that do-over opportunity was a major issue. Going back to the posts on the other forum back in November, mdsummer45 was going to see that her son made personal contact with the SM via letter or phone calls that possibly weren't made. A number of different instances have been mentioned at one time or another in the posts implying that perhaps there was an established pattern of behavior that was in question with this Scout.

 

It just seems hard to believe that a Scoutmaster, a troop committee, a district advancement committee and a council advancement committee have all come to the wrong conclusion regarding this Scout and his quest to become an Eagle Scout.

 

 

[mdsummer45]

It appears that when my son attempts to defend himself at the distrcit meeting(which we just found out from the council AC was my sons EBOR...I did not know that nor did my son), it is viewed like this...'Now you continue the argument, personalizing and demonizing those people who "deny you" the Eagle Award. By continuing this behavior, you only reinforce thier conclusion.' The person who chaired the District meeting was the District Chairman. And as I have mentioned before this SM hold 3 postions at the District level. The SM also contacted the DC before writing the letter to my son and told the DC his feelings about my son and asked for the DC input as to what the SM should do.(This is written in the SM presentation to the troop Committee) Is this possibly a conflict of interest?

 

Advise the SM about what he should do and then Chair the appeal at the District level? Just a question.

[nolesrule]

"From an earlier post, I got the impression that the Scout did personally appear before the District Advancement Committee and have an opportunity to present his case. I think that mdsummer45 mentioned that they even took time to talk with her after the District EBOR/Appeal meeting."

 

I think you're right. Although I read through the summary before posting, apparently i missed the post where a meeting was held and they denied the scout due to lack of Scout Spirit based on meeting attendance during his junior year of high school.

 

"If it can be proven that the appeals procedure was not followed, Council or National should intervene. Unfortunately, they normally know how to cover their #$$. "

 

ghermanno, thanks for answering my theoretical question.

 

 

Still, I have a problem with troop leaders springing a "your not good enough" excuse at the last minute when there was ample opportunity to guide the boy to the necessary improvement prior to this whole showdown.

 

Edit: note I was composing this while the reply above me was being written.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[scoutldr]

This gets more bizarre by the day...how can a District hold an EBOR without the Scout's (and parent's) knowledge and consent?

 

All I can say is, if this were my troop and District, your son would be an Eagle Scout now, taking all that you have said at face value. Your only mistake was in not transferring to another troop/District when you had the chance.

 

As an Eagle Scout and 30 year Scouter, I too, am embarrassed.

[The Blancmange]

ghermanno wrote:

He had a problem with the family and rejected the project and told the school for whom the boy had received approvals that they were NOT to approve it or face litigation.

I'm curious what kind of litigation a beneficiary of a potential Eagle project might face in regards to the approval/non-approval of a project. I recognize you are saying that the council was doing whatever they felt like, but certainly someone would have to see this as a hollow threat. Right???

 

If my council ever sued someone over an Eagle project, they would never see another FOS donation from me.(This message has been edited by The Blancmange)

[Beavah]

This gets more bizarre by the day...how can a District hold an EBOR without the Scout's (and parent's) knowledge and consent?

 

They didn't, eh?

 

Mdsummer45 is just havin' selective amnesia or wasn't listening closely.

 

There are pages in this thread where I and Eagle92 and others tell her that the district will be conducting the EBOR, and where she acknowledges that it will be a district BOR.

 

So there's nothin' bizarre here. She and her son were well informed, but in the emotion of the month that fact got lost. Dat's why it's best to read cautiously when listenin' to only one side.

 

I think the local folks have collectively determined that the lad has been a minimal participant in the unit who had some serious attitude/behavioral problems when he did participate, and who never responded appropriately to those issues when they were addressed in person and in writing. Instead, he either blamed the adults or avoided the adults, and continues to avoid any notion of personal responsibility.

 

Now I'm just guessin' and projecting, eh? That may or may not be their side of it, but I expect it's close. Mdsummer doesn't hear that (or us sometimes) because she's just seein' her son as the great student and kid he no doubt is. So she and her son aren't acknowledgin' the other side.

 

That's the nature of such disputes, eh? There's some truth to all of it. Both the good kid and the smart aleck who isn't taking responsibility. Tough to hear as a boy or a parent. Tough for folks to sort out.

 

Very hard to say anything about from afar, other than that the troop, district, and council have been followin' the appeals procedure well - indeed, better than most.

 

Beavah