Eagle Problems....BIG

[desertrat77]

I think Beavah summed it up well.

 

Given the lengths that the troop and district have gone to nonconcur, I've got to echo a common theme: it has me wondering what the rest of the story is.

 

I've been in some pretty messed up troops over the years. But thinking back to the most ham fisted, arbitrary, stubborn, my-way-or-the-highway SM I had as a youth, he never did anything to stop the progress of a good scout.

 

One scout, a friend of mine, never got along with the SM. Both scout and SM made no bones about it: they could not tolerate each other.

 

But there was no denying my friend was a good leader. And come time for Eagle, this same SM helped the scout thru the process, and he was awarded Eagle with no problems at all. The SM had no choice but to do the right thing.

 

In the case at hand, something happened...probably some long term ill will.

 

I truly hope the scout gets his Eagle. But given the facts....

 

To borrow a phrase, if you and your boss/SM/parent have a difference of opinion, the authority figure has the opinion, and you have the difference.

 

I know I'm stating the obvious, but to sum up, there is more to the Eagle rank that having the squares filled, or showing up to a certain percentage of meetings.

 

Part of it learning to resolve conflict, and getting along with people, even if it galls you.

 

If someone in authority is wrong, there are steps to address it. One that does not work so well is the long-running grudge match. Even if you are right, you often end up in the wrong....(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[sandspur]

OK, in the spirit of not rehashing what others have said but trying to see the best way out for your son, I make the following observations:

1. I think that 2 AM incident was a bigger deal than you or your son see it as. Think about this: EVERY scout leader has dealt with noisy scouts in tents after lights out. It is old hat for scouters. Leadership 101. So, for the ASM and SM to make such a big deal about this one, SOMETHING was out of the ordinary. The two hints are the 2 AM (more than just some trouble settling down there) and your sons walking away from the ASM. I respectfully suggest that your son might want to take a hard look at the way he acted (as a senior scout and troop leader) and might want to acknowledge that he did not handle it well. If the reviewers see some indication of responsibility being taken here, it would go a long way. Denial will work against him. Where you say your son feels he is being pushed to say he did something he didnt do, well, what did he do? Or what should he have done? Yes, the ASM could have handled it better, but he is not under review and up for an award here, your son is. And your son could have handled it better. He needs to realize it, say so (and mean it).

2. Yes, attendance percentages and quotas are not allowed, but they are an indication yes? While a troop cannot REQUIRE 75% attendance, when evaluating participation and input to the life of the troop, it is pretty hard to participate when you are not there. Pretty hard to be an instructor when you are not there. If someone told me a scout was not performing up to snuff as an instructor and not showing leadership in the troop, I would ask and why do you think so? Answering that he is there only about a third of the time seems a pretty good reason for the judgment. You need to have a good reply to this other than just that percentage attendance requirements are not allowed. Perhaps the best way is to point out your sons entire performance as a Life Scout. But again, acknowledge, do not deny, the problem.

Good luck!

 

 

[dan]

I guess I have a different take on what I have read here than others posters do. It sounds like this scout pushed the SM and ASM buttons and they never got over it. I have had so many scouts push my buttons over the years. Before I understood the dynamics of scouting I thought many of these scouts would and should not become Eagles. After a few years in scouting I expect them to push my buttons. As the scouts get older I am amazed how much the scouts have grown and what fine young men they have become. This has given many stories to tell at Eagle COHs.

It sounds to me that the SM is still upset over something that happened what over a year ago? There are very few perfect scouts, only really good kids and young men.

 

Please keep us informed on what happens.

[Rick Talbert]

I just found this site this evenning. I have a six year old son who I think would enjoy getting involved with the cub scouts, so I was trying to research this possibility. Something caused me however to click on this thread and I began reading, and reading, and reading. I felt the need to post from an outsider's perspective, what I feel about this lady and her son's problem after reading several, but not all of the pages here. First it appears to me, (and I may be wrong)that many of you posting here are deeply involved with this organization and I am sure some of you hold some managerial positions with the BSA. This lady and this young man need help, not red tape and a bunch of hoops to jump through. Looks to me like they have been getting the run around. What I have read of the conduct of this "SM" and the trouble this young man has had, it does not shed a positive light at all on the BSA. Some of the powers that be should take note of this situation and resolve this conflict and have a little talk with the SM. This family and this young man have undoubtedly made many sacrifices and have been committed to and supportive of this organization for many years. To think of what this young man had to put in to get to the point he is now, in and of itself deserves something in return from the organization. I had envisioned the BSA as a very positive organization that builds these kids up, not one that tears them down and obstructs their path towards their goals. If this kid was having trouble, he should have been helped, not "taught a lesson" by denying him the goal he has pursued for many years. Gimme a break. To be honest this story makes me a little sick and a little angry. Not sure if I want to get my son involved if problems such as these occur and go unhandled by the org. My father always had good memories of scouting and told wonderful stories. But it is grassroot leaders such as this SM who really hurt what should be a positive reputation. I don't care if the kid made a mistake in judgement at 2 o clock in the morning at some camping trip. Get over it. He is a kid. Kids sometimes do stupid things, that does not make them bad kids. What creates "bad kids" is when adults continually and outwardly express the opinion that they are a "bad kid". The kid will eventually give up on himself and accept that role. This young man's life is just beginning and the BSA is gonna kick it off this way? He is gonna remember this and its gonna shape not only how he views himself, but how he views the organization. This is the Boy Scouts for crying out loud, not even the Marine Corps are this a-nal retentive.

[NeilLup]

Hello Rick,

 

Thank you very much for your very thoughtful and insightful post.

 

I would imagine that most of us would agree with what you have written. The BSA exists as an organization and we serve as Scout leaders for the purpose of working with and helping youth and improving their citizenship, character and fitness. The Eagle Scout award exists as a means to that end and if and when becoming an Eagle Scout becomes an end in itself or detracts from a youth's experience, something is seriously wrong.

 

Each Scout unit -- Pack, Troop, Team, Crew and Ship -- is independent. Its leaders are chosen by its sponsoring organization or in some cases by the previous group of leaders and supported by the sponsoring organization. They are NOT chosen by the BSA nor, except in some exceedingly unusual circumstances, does the BSA really have any say in who the leaders are. We do our best to train and guide those leaders but ultimately, they are volunteers and we are volunteers and an individual group of leaders is encouraged to build a Scout unit of the type that they think will best serve youth within very broad guidelines. The local District and Council then do their best to help and support that unit and those leaders.

 

By and large, it works and works very, very well. Almost a hundred years of service have shown the great benefit that Scouting can bring to youth. But there are exceptions and problems as any program administered by humans can have problems. The situation documented in this thread would seem to be such a problem although, as many posters have noted, we are only reading one side of the story. There is an appeal system which is being pursued. Until that appeal system is exhausted, I would not suggest that the young man in question is being treated with gross unfairness. Remembering that our purpose is to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth, I would suggest that some of us might even say that for an older youth, it can be a powerful learning experience to understand that "life is unfair" as John F. Kennedy said but that even when unfairness seems to happen there are ways to rectify the situation, stand up for oneself and make things right.

 

I hope that you choose to have your son join a Cub Scout pack and pursue Scouting. It is the same great organization that your father remembers. But because each Cub Scout Pack has its own personality, I would strongly suggest that you investigate your local Pack(s) and their leaders and make sure that you are comfortable with what they are doing and who they are. I am very confident that you will be able to find a Pack where you and your son will have a wonderful experience.

[NealOnWheels]

Rick,

 

I appreciate your viewpoint.

 

Please keep in mind this is the exception and not the rule.

 

There are a lot of good Scouters out there and a few bad Scouters. Since we don't know the full story here I will refrain from making a judgement on this situation.

 

People often come to this forum to solve problems so you see a lot of the negativity here.

 

Unless there are gross violations of Scouting policy the Scoutmaster is accountable only to the Troop's Chartered Organization. They are the ones who should "have a little talk with the SM".

 

I would strongly encourage your son to join Cub Scouting. Look around for a Pack that you like. More than likely you will have several choices.

 

And while your at it enthusiastically volunteer to be a leader. You will probably see an expression on a face that will be priceless. You can then be one of those good Scouters that "builds these kids up, not one that tears them down". It can be a lot of work at times but the "pay" is worth it.

[Rick Talbert]

Thanks for the explanations, both here and in the e-mails. I was probably being a little over dramatic when I said, I didn't know if I would get my son involved with an org. that handled problems in this manner. I am really not the type to judge an entire organization that I have always had a positive opinion of, based on one bad story. I did want to express how something like this can look to an outsider such as myself, and how this SM's attitude can hurt the perception of the org. as a whole. I understand that we are only hearing one side, but this lady seems to have been very open and honest and expressed this situation with great detail and concern, and I don't think she has been unfair in her evaluation. It appears that the "other side" is unwilling to express (even to her) his reasonning.

As was pointed out, the BSA's "chain of command" so to speak may be set up a little differently than I assumed, with little accountability to the national scope. But as (I think I) understand it, the BSA sets the roadmap that the scout follows to attain his Eagle Scout title. It certainly would be a shame in my opinion if this young man has done all that was required and is blocked from this goal due to what sounds like a personality conflict with one person. To me, these types of situations should be researched some, by those running the BSA. Regardless of the fact that the org. is run by volounteers who answer to a more local district or whatever. The BSA should not be so disconnected from its membership, not to be concerned with problems on a grassroots level. If there is a possible bad apple in the ranks acting as a representative of the BSA, then the BSA should at the least make a phone call to whoever is in charge of that region and request that he look into the complaint. And it is true that life is not always fair. Ussually it is not fair, that is a tough and disheartening lesson to learn. Sometimes life throws you lemons. But fairness should be a goal when an organization is dealing with youngsters where in there is an implication that rewards are based on merit and documented work. Not to change the subject, but I am finding only one cub scout troop in my area, and no boy scout troops. I am going to send an e-mail to the leader of this troop, about the possibility of my son joining up. I think scouting is right up his alley. Could there be other cub scout and boy scout troops that are not listed for some reason?

[ScoutNut]

No one has been blocked from any goals as of yet. The young man still has 2 levels of appeals he can go thru. If, for whatever reason, his appeal at his Council level fails, he can still appeal to the BSA National Committee. At that point BSA National will research the situation.

 

You don't expect the owner of your company to step in if you are having problems at work with the person in the next cubicle.

 

As to the number of Cub Scout Packs in your area, that usually depends on the size of the town you live in and where it is located. Small towns, especially very rural ones, might have only 1 Cub Pack. In that case you might have to expand your search to nearby towns too.

 

You can check the Pack Finder here -

 

http://www.joincubscouting.org/

 

Put in your zip code and it should give you a list of Cub Scout Packs by town and Charter Organization. It also gives you contact information for your BSA Council. You could give them a call and ask for a contact list of Cubmasters for Packs in your area.

 

I would not worry about finding a Boy Scout Troop just yet. You have 4.5-5 years to go before your son reaches that point.

 

[Beavah]

Bumpin' this back up. Seems like it's been nearly a month since da end of the district-level appeal. I expect da council-level appeal has been decided by now.

 

Any word, mdsummer45?

 

B

 

[mdsummer45]

Nope...still waiting to hear from the council for a date for the appeal. After the district level appeal it took two wks to receive the official letter from the district people and it has been two week since the appeal letter has been sent to the council people. Have called twice to be sure that they had received the letter and was told by the Council Advancement professional that the CAC had the letter and was "reviewing it". Going to have son call again today when he gets home from work for another status report.

[Beavah]

Ah, movin' at da speed of bureaucracy. Are yeh part of a large council (youth-wise or geography-wise)? I like to see these things progress at a slightly better clip, but in some areas it can be more difficult.

 

Patience and perseverance!

 

B

 

[Hal_Crawford]

I would expect that at this time of year much of the council efforts are focused on opening summer camps and such. Volunteers may also be getting units ready for camp or heading off on family vacations. It's no comfort for the scout or his mom but it is quite likely the reality.

 

Hal

[NeilLup]

Hello Beavah,

 

Bureaucracy may be slow but this is one where, if I were on the Council Advancement Committee, I would make sure that my Ps and Qs were very carefully minded. This unit is clearly very knowledgeable about Scouting and is well wired at the District. This is clearly also not a case where the unit has made some transparently obvious error but rather, the reversal will need to be a reversal on the judgement of the Troop as to whether Scout Spirit was displayed. No matter what, someone very dedicated to Scouting will end up unhappy. The summer is undoubtedly a factor but so, I hope and suspect, it taking the time to do things right.

[mdsummer45]

Son just received a letter from the Council Committee Chairman. It said that they have reviewed the information that was sent to them by the troop and the district and have decided to uphold the decision made by the troop and the district not to recommend him for Eagle. Okay...I'm confused, no one from the Council ever spoke to my son. Is it usual for the Council to just read the information presented by one side and make a decision. They said that they will be sending off the total package of recommendations to National for their decision. Only one side(the troop and district) is heard at the Council level and then also at the National level.

[evmori]

mdsummer45,

 

It sounds like you have run up against the "Good Old Boy" network. I would call National now & get the details on filing your appeal there.