Eagle Problems....BIG

[Eagle69]

As long as all requirements on the Eagle Application down through #6 have been signed off prior to the 18th birthday you are fine. We just did an Eagle Board this week on a young man that was 40 days past his 18th birthday. No problem.

[mdsummer45]

 

And therein lies my possible concern...the SM has refused to give my son a SM conference and will not sign off on the Eagle Application. Therefore #6 has not been completed (although my son has written his goals and ambition statement and that statement has been forwarded to the DAC).

[Beavah]

Not a concern, mdsummer45.

 

NeilLup gave yeh da straight scoop. Eagle BOR can be held within 3 months after his 18th birthday, no problem. 6 months after, no real problem. There's no time crunch.

 

Da issue of the SM's lack of endorsement will be decided by da Eagle BOR, whenever it occurs. Again, no real problem.

 

The only issue around the 18th Birthday is if a BOR discovers something missing, or has to say "not yet" for some reason. If the lad is under 18, he can go back and finish whatever is missing or work hard on improving whatever wasn't up to snuff. If he's over 18, he can't. That's the problem with gettin' close to deadlines. But your son was at that spot anyways, eh? One month before doesn't give him time to fix many things either.

 

So at this point, there's no time pressure, and pushin' when folks are sick or whatnot is only goin' to look gauche.

 

Beavah

 

Everyone always coming to Zathras with problems. Great responsibilities. But Zathras does not mind. Zathras trained in crisis management.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[asm 411]

How odd Beavah ...

 

You say -

 

" The only issue around the 18th Birthday is if a BOR discovers something missing, or has to say 'not yet' for some reason. If the lad is under 18, he can go back and finish whatever is missing or work hard on improving whatever wasn't up to snuff. If he's over 18, he can't."

 

but according to Zathras -

 

"Cannot run out of time, there is infinite time."

 

I know this is absolutely of no help but I could not help myself after seeing the Zathras quote below.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Someone with more advancement experience please correct me, but I believe, and again this is a belief, that since the Eagle Candidate in question has attempted to get his EBOR well in advance of his 18th birthday, and the ADULTS in his unit were unwilling to give him the EBOR which would have advised him of what is needed to be done PRIOR to his birthday, AND the appeals process has been started well in advance of said birthday, that IF anything is discovered that would disqualify an Eagle Candidate after his 18th bday, the candidate can be given an extension, pending national's approval to fix the problem equivelent tot he amount of time he would have between when first asked for his EBOR and his 18th birthday.

 

 

Again this is something that is at the back of my mind as I believe a situation like this has happened in my current council a few years back. I have very limited experience with advancement, so I may be completely wrong.

[NeilLup]

Hello Eagle92,

 

You are correct, of course. The key phrase in your post is "pending national's approval." With the approval of the National council, an extension for any reason for any length of time is possible. But that's about like saying that "with the approval of the IRS, you don't have to pay your income tax."

 

I don't want to to concern mdsummer, so I want to phrase my post carefully. Those of us who do have some advancement experience have been saying that with the situation as presented by mdsummer, it is exceedingly likely that her son will be approved for his Eagle Scout at the local council level. If, for some reason, the local council does not approve, then I believe that, with the situation as presented, it is very, very likely that an appeal would be approved by the National Council.

 

One of the elements of that situation is that the Scout has, prior to his 18th birthday, repeatedly asked for a Scoutmaster's Conference and the SM has refused to give one. I believe that the written Eagle Scout advancement guidelines specifically state that the Scoutmaster may not refuse to give a Scoutmaster's Conference as a means to block Eagle Scout advancement, so this refusal is specifically appealable. A similar circumstance occurs with a failure to hold a Board of Review. That is specifically appealable. Note that the requirements for Eagle Scout do not state that the Scout has to "pass" the Scoutmaster's Conference, merely to participate in one. If I were on the appeal board, I would state that, in my opinion, the Scout asking for the Scoutmaster's Conference and the SM refusing giving character based reasons qualified as participating in a Scoutmaster's Conference and move on to the next item.

 

When one moves off this and a few other well beaten tracks in Eagle Scout advancement such as a Troop having a percentage participation requirement to be considered "active" getting extensions from the National Council can be very difficult. The attitude of the National Council has been that the Eagle Scout requirements have been there since the boy became a Scout. If he is well in advance of his 18th birthday the matter can be corrected. If the boy is right at his 18th birthday, that is his choice and his responsibility. The fact that matters might be beyond his control now do not change the fact that he chose to wait until right before his 18th birthday to complete the requirements. He did not choose to give himself time to correct problems and he must bear the consequences of that choice.

 

Extensions are granted, but they are exceedingly rare representing only a handful each year. A larger number of requests for extension are turned down. An exception to this occurs when the Scout is mentally or physically handicapped. There is a well established procedure for extensions for such Scouts and those extensions are granted.

 

So we may be wrong, but I believe that mdsummer and son will make out just fine. But another Scout with other facts anticipating an extension may well be sorely disappointed.

[mdsummer45]

Me thinks me needs to look over my shoulder..there are spies amongst us. The water is no longer safe.

 

 

That said...things are moving along and my son is waiting for a date, time and place for his BOR. Will keep you all posted. Again thanks to all for your help!

[Beavah]

Spies? Nah.

 

Occasional trolls. Lot's o' funny critters like Beavers and Bobwhites.

 

It is a public forum, of course, so I reckon what you're implyin' is that someone else from your troop or district has been readin'? I honestly don't think that's a problem, if everyone has been honest. While there can be some emotion in these things, scouters as a whole are a fairly sane and thoughtful bunch who really have da best interest of kids at heart.

 

Stay respectful, let da process proceed and let people do their jobs.

 

Glad to hear there's an EBOR / appeal scheduled. That's da next step. Keep us posted.

 

Beavah

 

[mdsummer45]

Have a quick question...at the district level BOR should my son expect to "defend" himself in regard to the accusations the SM and the Troop Committee have made against my son...or...does this group just look at the cold facts...has he met the requirements for Eagle based on what is listed on the Eagle application. How will they get around the fact that the SM refused to give my son a SM conference(can a SM from another troop who is on this BOR fulfill that requirement?) I think we will have a BOR before the end of next week and I just want to give my son some insight as to what he should expect. I tell him that I think this group will question him about his feelings about scouting, what he has learned , what he has enjoyed, how he has implemented scout ideals in his daily life, and for him to expect to talk about his Eagle service project..Am I on the right tract?

[Buffalo Skipper]

I do not know what the "appeal board" will expect. I would speculate (and I want to make it clear that this is conjecture only) that they will handle this largely like a regular review, which is to say, this is not a trial. I would expect that they may ask him some extra and pointed questions about his scout spirit, and even may look for his opinion on why the SM and committee took the position they did.

 

Remember that a BOR should be a friendly meeting. This is neither a Grand Jury investigation nor a trial where your son has been "accused." I hope I am not wrong, but it would be sad to hear that a review would be handled in a litigious manner.

[NealOnWheels]

If they follow procedures correctly they should either be getting written statements or directly interview you son's Scoutmaster and Committee.

 

Your son may very well need to defend himself.

 

Hopefully with outside observers your son will have a fair hearing.

 

Any update on the timeline?

[Beavah]

Yah, I'd expect it to proceed like a regular EBOR, eh? Detailed questions about his project, how the plan differed from da reality, how he adapted, how he showed leadership. Some questions about Merit Badges, his scouting experiences. More detailed questions about his leadership positions and performance in those roles, what he accomplished, what he struggled with.

 

And some very targeted questions about Scout Spirit and his understanding of the Oath and Law, eh? If they're doin' their jobs, they're goin' to raise Scout Spirit as it relates to his life out of scouting, based on da reference letters, and they're goin' to be very pointed about his Scout Spirit within Scouting. He might get a few questions on da order of "do you feel it is appropriate to get mouthy with your SM or other leaders?" "How would you address issues of concern with colleagues or superiors in the future?" Whatever issues the Scoutmaster had in terms of scout spirit. I'd expect to even get a "Why do you feel we should give you Eagle when the adults closest to you in the program don't feel the award is merited?"

 

Or at least, I'd "Be Prepared"

 

I think gettin' into a quibblin' match on da details would be a poor decision on your son's part. If he can't rise above such things, he probably doesn't merit the award. So "defend himself" I think is inappropriate if that's what he's thinkin'. I think a very polite acknowledgment that perspectives can be different, and offering his perspective in a non-judgmental, non-argumentative manner can be OK, but only if they're really focusing on da SM's comments "Your SM said that you did X and Y and Z..." If they're just askin' questions like the ones above, he should give the answer based on his principles and values.

 

Beavah

 

[mmhardy]

I re-read some of the posts on this thread and cant help but wonder if within this troop, this group of so-called adult Scouters has tainted what is supposed to be a character building experience. While I feel this young man will ultimately prevail he will forever convey this experience to whoever asks him about Scouting, for the rest of his life!

 

I see too many adults, many who were never Scouts, see themselves as keepers of the flame Throwing up all kinds of walls and obstacles at some young man who somewhere along the line pushed their button.

 

I think this young man is within his right to push back a bit within his EBOR. He does not have to act like some doe eyed kid hoping the gang will like him. Relating his experience at the district level will hopefully prevent this toxic troop from doing more damage.

 

[ScoutNut]

>

 

The SM conference, or the lack of one, is no longer of any consequence. Your son is past that point.

 

Your District Advancement Committee has to review all of the facts of your son's case. They have to interview all of the parties involved. That includes your son.

 

There is no need to "prep" him. Simply tell him to be polite, and to answer their questions as honestly and completely as he can. He should be fine.

 

[mdsummer45]

Okay, my son just told me he received an email stating the BOR will be next week. As I said in my posting these are my questions and not my sons. You all are my resources for scout info, I have no one else to turn to that is why I ask the questions. I appreciate all your replies.