HICO_Eagle Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Calico, I understand what you're saying except that somewhere in the 15 preceding pages I think it was said the project was approved by the troop Advancement Chair without consulting the SM, CC, etc. The SM might very well have wanted to have a discussion before approving the project. This is all kind of moot as I believe the District will probably try to find a way to get mdsummer45's son his Eagle outside his troop. I don't even blame them for it because at some point you're led to all kinds of damage for the district or council no matter what happens. They probably don't want to annoy or besmirch what is probably an otherwise healthy and well-functioning troop and troop leadership. They also don't want the negative publicity that would likely result if the boy didn't get his Eagle at this point. Easiest solution is to have a proforma EBOR outside the troop and just let everyone go their separate ways. I'm a little sensitive to this topic as I've had Scouts that I felt didn't properly display or live the Scout Spirit go through the process and be given their Eagles. In two cases I'm thinking of, no one on the committee had the gumption to say publicly they didn't think the Scout deserved it although there were a lot of fireside discussions. I think in both cases I simply said that I didn't want to sign any of his paperwork or be on his EBOR because I'd have to say 'no'. In a third case, I did hold the Scout back from the EBOR until he demonstrated better Scout Spirit -- and told him so in a meeting with the Scout, the CC, COR and his father. All three Scouts made Eagle but I feel better about the third one because he did turn himself around and fix the behaviors I saw as problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdsummer45 Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 HICO_Eagle: Just to clarify...the SM, by his own choice, does not have a yes or no vote when approving an Eagle project but does sit on the committee who reviews the scouts project prior to approval. The SM participates and expresses his opinions regarding the project, but does not have a vote when it comes to the actual project approval. After a minor tweak, My son received unanimous approval by this committee for his eagle project. The CC does vote and his signature is on the paperwork approving the start of the project. The troop has an Eagle advisor who signs as the troop representative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Calico makes an excellent point! It would seem for some reason, the SM has it in for this Scout. This is just wrong. And the committee more or less endorsed the SM's actions by backing him up! There are serious problems with the adult leadership in this unit & the only ones who will suffer are the Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 The "approval signatures" required on the Eagle Project "plan" are: - Committee Member - Religious Institution, school or community representative - District Advancement representative - Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor The last one is for Troop SM, Varsity Team Coach or Venuting Advisor...all equivalent Unit leader positions. It does NOT mean "Eagle Advisor", which is usally the "committee member". So, in order for the project to proceed, the SM does indeed need to "approve" the Eagle project plan. I agree with the others...if there was no intent to grant an SM conference or EBOR, then why did they approve the project? That's just a game of "gotcha" and has no place in Scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdsummer45 Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 In this troop the Eagle advisor has always been the one to sign on the line for SM/Coach/Advisor...he even signs the DAR's initials on the line for the DAR. To my knowledge, this is done for all of the scouts in this troop who are working on their Eagle project. Is this troop making up their own rules? Different places, different rules?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 MD Yes the troop is playing fast and loose, and that may, repeat MAY, cause some problems with the District EBOR. Someone from the district advancement committee, usually the DAC themself, is the one who discusses the projects, make some recommendations if needed, and approves the project. I know that I was almost rejected at my EBOR b/c the current DAC did not approve my eagle project. Fortunately #1 the former DAC that approved the project was also on the EBOR and 2) I wanted to know if there was an appeals process b/c I did everything I was supposed to do, As for the SM not signing the project, that is irregular, although I've seen some units want another leader sign the paperwork for SM' son. Since this is a troop policy and has been used for previous eagles, it's easily appealable. Good luck and keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I don't think that will be a big issues. Normally, one of the easiest things for an appeals committee to correct are procedural error made by the unit. Listen to you DAC. Get him the blue cards and other info he wants and chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 It's highly illogical to approve an Eagle project if the unit is then going to deny both a Scoutmaster's Conference and a Board of Review for the Eagle Rank based on the grounds laid out by this Scoutmaster. Nah, Calico, I disagree. There's no basis for not approvin' an Eagle project based on Scout Spirit issues, or any other Eagle requirement. While there are a few troops that don't approve projects until a lad has finished all his merit badges, or completed his POR, that's not really the way it should be done. Same with not approvin' a project because of Scout Spirit. In part, because that's a harder issue to appeal, so it'd be deprivin' the boy of a real chance for the rank. I reckon most troops would approve da project the same way this one did. In this case, it sounds like the project was approved a year or more before the lad's 18th birthday. That gives the lad a year to work on da Scout Spirit issues, and the summer to work on the project. Seems pretty reasonable. It'd be a lot harder to delay the project into his senior year instead of summer. Just wouldn't seem fair to the lad. That to my mind would show that the SM/troop had some malice and were really tryin' to sabotage the lad, where what they did shows they were proceedin' pretty normally. I don't know what to make of the Eagle Coach signin' for the district, but that seems like SOP in this case. Could be he's on the district advancement committee and is so empowered. Could be he sends off a copy to the chair who approves over the phone and he signs for him. I don't think it'll be an issue for da EBOR. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nike Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 If an SM has a problem with a boy showing Scout Spirit, then why wouldn't he have some sort of sit down with Scout and probably parents letting everyone know why he was hesitant to sign off on a project? That approval, is for most people, the big green light on Eagle. Maybe in mdsummer's case, the SM truly can't stand confrontations and was just hoping everything would get better. I don't know, but the more I read about htis troop, the more hinky things seem. But, maybe we're all a little eccentric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 My two cents: - There are clear signs this unit has Advancement Method problems when the SM does not perform one of his basic duties: Mentoring the Life Scout who brings an ELSP forward. It's not for an ASM to sign, it's not for a Committee member to sign. The Scoutmaster block belongs to the Unit Serving Scouter in the principal Direct Contact position. Ms Summer... fyi, we are migrating away from your sons' issue to some broader discussion do not be afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 There are clear signs this unit has Advancement Method problems when the SM does not perform one of his basic duties: Mentoring the Life Scout who brings an ELSP forward. It's not for an ASM to sign, it's not for a Committee member to sign. Nah, John-in-KC, this is a pretty common thing across the country, eh? Many, many troops use Eagle project advisors in a SM capacity for the project process. Some districts yeh have to just because you need a dedicated adult to keep up with the paperwork . Da BSA is even startin' to recognize the role, with the addition of the Eagle Mentor pin to the presentation kit. Bigger troops in particular are likely to use ASMs in this role. Problem is if the project advisor and SM are sendin' different signals because they're not keepin' each other in the loop. IMO, though, the project is a separate requirement from Scout Spirit and da other Eagle Requirements. Yeh shouldn't hold one up because the another isn't complete. Beavah Physics tells us that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back. And so, here we are, victims of mathematics! - Ambassador Londo Mollari Note for mdsummer45: Yah, what John said, eh? We're not talkin' about your case anymore, we're talking about a bunch of general issues. When you need us again or have news, just jump in and we'll re-focus!(This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Is the Eagle advisor the DAR? If not, then yup they are making their own rules! After your son earns his Eagle, run fast & far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Is the Eagle advisor the DAR? Daughter of the American Revolution? I thought he was a guy! Of course, in keepin' with da B5 thing, he/she might be a DILGAR instead of a DAR. In that case, yeh better run fast and far. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicki Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Nah, Beav, if it's a Dilgar you can't run fast enough. Fighting is the only answer - and immortality isn't what it's cracked up to be. Vicki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 DAR for the purposes of this thread = District Advancement Rep! Yins is funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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