Eagle Problems....BIG

[mdsummer45]

Actually, Son #2 will be going to Philmont this summer and has recently had his BOR for Star (about 2 weeks ago). I think they are going to be walking very carefully with this boy. BUT, I hear your thoughts and I am going to document everything for him and keep an eye on things. What is that saying...keep you friends close but keep your enemies closer. That is exactly what I plan to do.

[GernBlansten]

If #2 son is adamant, I'd say you should really try to get on the committee. If only to make them aware that you will not allow #2 or any other boy to be ambushed like #1 son was. I would find it unlikely that you will be able to get on that committee. Sounds like a good ol' boys club.

[Lisabob]

More likely, I think , is that you'll be able to get on to the committee but won't be able to influence it. Being the lone voice in the wilderness isn't much fun either. On the other hand, troop leadership comes and goes and maybe you'll see a slow changing of the guard.

[mdsummer45]

Question here:

 

 

 

I am sure that my son will need to put in writing that his wants to start the appeals process. What does he say:

 

 

I am appealing the decision of my SM and and my troop committee not to support my application for the rank of Eagle. I feel that I have earned the rank of Eagle as I have completed the following requirements which are listed the my Scout Handbook: #1,#3,#4,#5(although have all of the necessary signatures(initial approval to begin and completion) for this requirement my SM has refused to sign off my scout book for this requirement.) My SM has told me that he will not sign off on Requirement #2 and has also refused to give me a SM conference (Requirement #6). I appealed the SM decision and requested a meeting with the troop committee to appeal the SM decision. The troop committee has denied my appeal and will not recommend me for an Eagle Board of Review. Therefore I am requesting a hearing at the District level to support my application for the rank of Eagle and seek support at the District level for an Eagle Board of Review.

 

The ACP&P states on page 33 "shall set forth is detail the reasons for requesting an appeal."

 

Should he leave out the part that says he feels that he has "earned the rank of Eagle as I have "

 

Does he need to say anymore in his request other than what I have stated above? If so, I need your guidance. Thanks

[John-in-KC]

Good almost afternoon. 1145pm at night? Says much imo. Son #2 needs to understand the animus coming against his brother may well be played out on him ...

 

I don't think your son needs to say much, especially the last clause.

 

His entire basis of appeal is the SM and Committee refuse to endorse his application for Eagle before the EBOR. He's appealing that decision, he is requesting an EBOR if the appeal is favorable, and he is asking for such extension of time as may be needed for the District appeal to get to the point of granting him a 3d party SM conference, if that be their decision.

 

His statement should be something like:

 

- I've met the responsibilities of performing the requirements, and have gone a bit beyond (cite).

 

- I've worked hard outside the Troop to make the Scout Oath and Law a part of who I am. My references will share with you the young man they have seen in recent years.

 

- I have completed my Eagle Leadership Service Project with the thanks of my supported (chruch, school, whatever), agency and the approval of my Scoutmaster and Committee.

 

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I would ask your son to call the District Advancement Chair today and ask for a time they can visit in the next day or two, and that the purpose of the visit is to appeal a Troop decision to endorse his Eagle application and convene an Eagle BOR.

 

Make sure you write your short business letter as well... We endorse our sons' decision to appeal his denial of an Eagle BOR by the SM and Committee of Troop 123, chartered by XYZ Institution of Wherever, State.

[ScoutNut]

>>> They even had the nerve to state " My Son seems to feel that he "deserves" the Eagle rank, not that he has "earned" the rank of Eagle"

[mdsummer45]

John in KC

 

I would like your permission to allow my son to use some of your phrasing as he writes his letter for appeal. I am way too close to this to be objective any longer..I need a clear head to guide my son and not the one of his mother who wants to give a a piece of her mind(nice words for posting purposes only) to each of these men...lol.

 

I will tell him not to mention how he thinks he has earn the rank(that was the clause you were referring to.. correct).

 

Or was it the last sentence " Therefore I am requesting a hearing at the District level to support my application for the rank of Eagle and seek support at the District level for an Eagle Board of Review"

 

I will tell him to let his word (examples) relay how he has earned the rank. Right???

 

 

*************

 

Thanks for all the hand holding, I just don't know how to advise my son anymore and appreciate all the help I am receiving. From my heart!!

 

(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)

[Beavah]

Yah, Ok, deep breath time again. I know it's human nature to try to turn people we disagree with into slimeballs. It makes us feel better and all, and makes our actions with respect to them feel OK, eh? Especially if our actions and advice really aren't da best examples of the Oath and Law.

 

Mdsummer, your younger son who loves the program should stay in it and continue to be a regular scout. He is his own person. You should not compromise his experience by trying to steer him away, take him away, document like mad, get on the committee and make trouble, yada yada. Leastways, not while you're feeling hurt and angry over son #1.

 

As for the appeal, there's no need for panic or lots of time pressure here, eh? The next step is an Eagle BOR at the district level. Eagle BORs can be conducted after a lad turns 18. Far better to be thoughtful, courteous, and prepared than it is to rush off calling people on a Sunday before your son even gets home. Call the DD on Monday to keep him informed, let him know that your son will be calling the DAC on Tuesday or Wednesday when he's back from the trip to figure out next steps.

 

Practically speaking, your son should put together a folder with his Eagle project stuff, signed project workbook, Eagle Application form, personal statements, etc. He should double-check on reference letters to make sure they are getting to the DAC. He should read the letter from the troop committee, get angry, yell, set it aside for a couple days, then come back and write his appeal letter. He should throw out his first draft where he tries to rebut each point of the committee's letter. Then he should write a draft which really just talks about how he has met all of the requirements for the Eagle Scout rank, and while acknowledging some past errors talks about who he is now.

 

He should schedule the appeal BOR a couple weeks out so that he can get in that mindset of being friendly and polite and such, not just re-living his meeting with the troop committee.

 

And then he should go for it!

 

Beavah

 

[NeilLup]

Hello mdsummer,

 

It sounds as if things are proceeding, sadly, as expected.

 

I don't have a problem with the 11:45PM e-mail. You and your son requested a timely response and you got one. You now have plenty of time to proceed.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say in the appeal letter that your son "deserves" to be an Eagle Scout. Rather, I would say that he believes that he has "met the requirements." That is the criterion that a Board of Review is supposed to use. When the time comes for the appeal board, if questions are asked about the SM Conference, your son can point out that he many times asked for the conference and the SM refused to give it. Similarly with the Board of Review.

 

It doesn't really matter a lot what the exact words of the appeal letter are. If the District Advancement Chairman is experienced, he or she knows the drill. Appeals do happen and probably more frequently than one would like.

 

I completely agree with Beavah that the important thing at this point is to be very polite and respectful to the members of the appeal and to look and act like an Eagle Scout in all of the dealings with the DAC and the appeal board.

 

I might have your son go before a mock appeal board to be prepared. Normally, I don't recommend practice boards, but this is a bit different. The main thing will to be prepared to answer questions about his dealings with the Troop and with the SM. There might be some practice questions like "Why do you think that the SM is so negative on your Eagle?" or "Is there something you have done that would cause the SM to think that you don't deserve to be an Eagle Scout?" His answers ideally will not be defensive or be oily or slimy. He certainly can speak about the things that happened years ago but indicate that he had learned from them and moved beyond them. The facebook page is something he should be prepared to address. I might have a copy of a printout of the Facebook page to show the Board members if they ask or if it seems appropriate unless it really is pretty bad.

 

I won't say don't worry because this kind of thing can be capricious. But I would concentrate now on preparing the best possible case and making it very easy for the appeal board.

[ljnrsu]

John gave great advice in what should be included in the appeal. He left out one important piece. You are not appealing the decision of recommending an EBOR. You are appealing the SM and Troop Committee decision to deny a Scoutmaster Conference as that is the last requirement that needs to be signed off. You should also ask upon successful completion of the SMC that an EBOR be convened.

 

It is a very sad that the Leadership in your Troop is acting in this manor. To bring up incidents that happened years ago to deny Eagle at this time. As others said the time to bring up these issues was long ago.

 

 

[ljnrsu]

John gave great advice in what should be included in the appeal. He left out one important piece. You are not appealing the decision of recommending an EBOR. You are appealing the SM and Troop Committee decision to deny a Scoutmaster Conference as that is the last requirement that needs to be signed off. You should also ask upon successful completion of the SMC that an EBOR be convened.

 

It is a very sad that the Leadership in your Troop is acting in this manor. To bring up incidents that happened years ago to deny Eagle at this time. As others said the time to bring up these issues was long ago.

 

edited sorry for double post(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

[John-in-KC]

mdsummer...

 

If my scribblings make sense, he's welcome to borrow them as he wishes. I think the ideas behind them might be better than my poor henscratches

 

I have to agree with Beavah. Let him keep track of himself. Lord willing, he'll learn from his brothers' walk on the trail Keep open eyes and open ears on *your* part, though.

[mdsummer45]

Clarification please....this is an excerpt from the letter he received from the CC:

 

"That meeting was held at your request to appeal to the troop committee a decision made by Scoutmaster X to not sign off on Eagle requirement # 2 - Demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life and Eagle requirement # 6 - Take part in a Scoutmaster Conference. The meeting was called for the purpose of deciding whether or not the committee should overturn the Scoutmaster's decision, recommend you for the Eagle rank, and approve the scheduling of an Eagle Board of review."

 

Okay so isn't he also appealing the decision of the SM and CC decision not the sign the Eagle application (under Unit Approval) and their decision not to recommend him for an Eagle BOR? Not just the SM refusal to conduct a SM conference?

 

 

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okay after we get the phrasing correct as to what exactly he is appealing...his letter to the DAC should NOT give a rebuttal to the points in the CC letter rather acknowledge and that the events happened(my side note here: even if the events were presented in a non factual way by the SM my son should not attempt to correct the facts...he should say something like ...'I have made mistakes in the past, especially in my early years in Boy Scouts, I have learned a valuable lesson from each experience and those experiences and lessons have helped me grow into the person who I am today.'(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)

[John-in-KC]

Ms Summer,

 

There are now two events and four consequences:

 

- Your sons' Scoutmaster denied your son:

-- An Eagle Scoutmaster Conference and

-- his endorsement of your sons' candidacy for Eagle by refusing to sign his Eagle Scout Application.

 

- Your sons' Troop Committee denied your son:

-- An Eagle Board of Review over the objection of the Scoutmaster.

-- An endorsement by the Committee Chairman of his Eagle Scout Application.

 

All four of these are covered in ACP&P. The two that really matter are the denials of endorsement by signing the Eagle Scout application.

 

What have you heard from the District Advancement Chair?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Beavah]

Okay so isn't he also appealing the decision of the SM and CC decision not the sign the Eagle application (under Unit Approval) and their decision not to recommend him for an Eagle BOR? Not just the SM refusal to conduct a SM conference?

 

Your son is appealing the decision of his SM and the troop committee not to recommend him for an Eagle BOR by refusing to sign his application. That's it. Don't worry about any of the other stuff, SM conference, etc. The other stuff is just part of the "not recommending for an Eagle BOR by refusing to sign his application."

 

B