Eagle Problems....BIG

[mdsummer45]

Beavah

 

Perhaps this SM needs to take a step back and re access his "plate". His son is out of scouts, other people would like to be SM (but this man will not budge), he hold 3 positions at the district level plus a job which requires him to travel. Just maybe he has his hands in too many pots. FYI...I am not the only parent who has had issues with this SM, but I am the only one whose son is at the point of completion of all the requirements for Eagle.

 

"Just ordinary folks with good enough intentions to spend a lot of their time running scouting for kids. Ordinary folks who aren't perfect." You are absolutely correct...but you need to take it one step further... No one is perfect...even an Eagle Scout.

[Beavah]

Perhaps this SM needs to take a step back and re access his "plate".

 

Could be. All kinds of good folks get into those situations, eh? But that's up to his wife to beat into his head, not us.

 

Don't get too down on those who don't have sons in the program. By and large they're the backbone of a lot of troops. Lem Siddons is alive and well out there.

 

I am not the only parent who has had issues with this SM...

 

Yah, doesn't matter, eh? Usually when yeh say things like this people in the know immediately discount your words. Almost 100% of the time, the anonymous "other people" really don't feel the same way the person talkin' does. Sometimes they were really just being polite while listenin' to someone vent. Other people can speak for themselves if they want to. If they don't, then they don't want to, eh?

 

"Just ordinary folks with good enough intentions to spend a lot of their time running scouting for kids. Ordinary folks who aren't perfect." You are absolutely correct...but you need to take it one step further... No one is perfect...even an Eagle Scout.

 

Yep. Both are true. Nobody expects our Eagles to be perfect, or should.

 

Please don't get me wrong, mdsummer45, it may well be that your son is a great lad dealing with a tired, distracted, or burned-out adult. Also may be that your son has been a mouthy know-it-all brat to this man, too, and not grown out of it. No way for us out here in cyberspace to know. Doesn't really matter anyways, because the process is the same, and the demands of politeness, respect and courtesy are the same. So the advice we give yeh is the same either way. And as I said before, I fully expect that your boy will be awarded the Eagle rank at some point.

 

I just sometimes feel da need to tamp down the emotions a bit, eh? While accusing a committee of plotting in advance to deliberately lose recommendation letters is the sort of thing we might occasionally vent privately to a friend in a moment of frustration, it's really not somethin' most of us would want to say in public about fellow scouters we've never met. It's really not fair, IMO. That's all.

 

Again, good luck to your son tonight.

 

Beavah

 

[mdsummer45]

Well, it was a very interesting night. We still do not have any resolution to this situation. The whole thing lasted a little over 1.5 hours. The CC told us we could go and that the committee would discuss things and hopefully come to a decision tonight but that he could not promise that that would happen. When my son asked him when my son would be hearing from the CC, the reply was well, I'm not sure I hope to have something to you soon. I pressed the CC and and sayed "will you have something to my son by Monday", the CC reply was " Well it depends, my mom is in the hospital and we may have to take her off life support"...Now , I get it...I'm not a heartless or unfeeling person...and I do feel for the man (even if he is well into his 60's, your mom is your mom no matter how old you are)but if that big of a situation is occuring in your life, I would think you would be able to ask some other committee member..perhaps the TAC to prepare the reply. Just my opinion.

 

The SM came , gave his statement, answered a few questions(some of which he clearly had trouble answering) and left stating that he had another meeting to go to. My son spoke and presented his statement. My son also asked to address some of the points in the SM statement..my son owned all of the situations that the SM had mentioned but said to the committee..." I'm not calling Mr SM a liar but what Mr SM said is not exactly what happened". My son went on to explain each situation. Mr SM never witnessed any of these situation first hand. Two were relayed to him by the same ASM (this ASM was told by someone else that they heard my son(he was in 9th grade at the time) saying a curse word and slamming his books on the grass after school..ASM was not there when it happened and is taking the word of his daughter who said she hear it)and the incident that occured this past Oct. which I have mentioned in my earlier posts. Another incident that was brought up by the SM was about how his first Eagle Service project fell apart(occurred when my son was in 10th grade but the SM did give him credit for starting and completing a 2nd project)) and the last of the 4 situations also occured when my son was in 9th grade..he was at a district type camping event and he was accused by the SM of fighting with another scout..the true story that my son relayed to the committee was that another scout threatened him with a walking stick poking and pretending to hit my son, my son was defending himself by yelling at the scout and finally my son ran to the leaders tent in tears to find someone to help him. Again, the SM did not personally witness this event, the SM said that another leader trying to calm the situation ask Mr SM if my son was in his troop. That leader had the boys apology to each other and the event went on. How strange that the SM sees this incident as my son fighting. My son was not the one with the stick . He was protecting himself with his voice. Also if is was such a memorable event to the SM why was last night the first time I had heard about the incident????

 

Can't really say what the out come will be..they asked my son questions and I felt he answered them clearly. They did ask if he had his completed Eagle application and Goals and Ambition statement (A BIG, HUGH THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU WHO GAVE US THAT GUIDANCE!!!!!!) and the Eagle Advisor took them from my son. So the Troop has all the completed paperwork.

 

One last point, and I think it will show some of you out there who have doubted me regarding my postings about this SM..This SM went so far as to get on his own son's Facebook accout to check out my sons Facebook page. There was a posting that the kids send to each other a checklist questionnaire stating check off any of the things you have done as a teenager...well my son check off a couple of not so nice things, nothing criminal just teenage thing...Well, I was aboslutely stunned that the SM would sink to such a low level just to justify himself and his refusal to sign off onn my son. To the committees credit they did ask the SM if he had ever done that for anyother Eagle Canidate.. and the SM said No..but attempted to justify what he had doneby saying it was something he thought he had to do in this case.

 

Oh, the SM also felt the need to mention me in his statement and attempted to put words in my mouth as he relayed the cursing incident (as stated about) what the SM accused me of saying never happened..I never said it. I was part of the conversation, I was there the SM was not.

 

 

So my plan today is to call the DD and give him an update , as he requested and ask him for further guidance.

 

Also, both my son and I were polite, and respectfully...which is not difficult for either of us because it is who we are, it is our nature. And the drama continues.....:^)

 

[John-in-KC]

Good morning Ms Summer? News, good, bad, ugly, or indifferent?

[mdsummer45]

WOW John in KC..we posted over each other...lol

[Eagle92]

While I understand the CC's position in referecne to his mother, the EBOR appeal is not rocket science and the decision should have been made last nite at the meeting. I think it is now time to formally appeal to the district/council level. I thinking that they are stonewalling you.

[NealOnWheels]

Ms Summer,

 

Did your son ask the Scoutmaster and the Committee Chairman for their signatures on his Eagle application? If so you have a clear yes or no from these people.

 

I am guessing niether are signed.

 

To start an appeal follow this from the Advancement Committee

Policies and Procedures:

 

"All requests for appeal shall be made in writing, signed by the Scout and/or his parent(s) or guardian(s), and shall set forth in detail the reasons for requesting an appeal."

[mdsummer45]

The SM refused to sign period. We are waiting for the decision from the committee as to whether or not they are going to sign. (That was the whole purpose of the meeting last night.)

[evmori]

Well, Ms Summer, I think it's time to move this along to the council level. Clearly the committee isn't going to do anything soon and while I'm not a heartless individual either, the mom thing is more of an excuse than a reason to drag this out any longer. I would get my son's Eagle paperwork back (I would have never turned it over unless it was just to get signed then given back) & head to your council office.

 

BTW, I from your post, I think you & your son acted with excellent character & didn't lower yourselves to the SM level.

 

Prayers will continue!

[NeilLup]

I started this post several times. I hope that it is now appropriately balanced and non emotional.

 

Good grief! The CC's MOTHER IS DYING and you have a problem with him thinking that takes priority over your son's Eagle Board of Review. I know that if I were that CC and I related that circumstance to my wife, she would ask me "Why do you bother with these people? They think only of themselves."

 

I haven't seen anything in your update which would lead me to think that the committee is acting in any way other than proper. They have a tough decision to make. It most likely looks to them that the SM has it in for your son and so they likely want to support your son. However, in doing that, they will be repudiating the SM who is their leader chosen to lead the Troop. Perhaps the SM will resign if they do that. Under any circumstances, repudiating the SM will weaken his position and cause severe friction between the committee and the SM. Tough situation. Not something done in 15 minutes particularly when the information sitting in front of them is of the "he said, she said" variety and, to an outsider, that's how it looks.

 

Because it is "he said, she said", your son has two challenges: establishing his credibility and then passing the Eagle Board. Among the standards the Eagle Board will use are Kind and Courteous. Let's say that the committee decision goes against you and the matter then goes to the Scout Executive or to an appeal board at the council. They call in the CC among others and he said "We held the review on the night that my mother was dying. I explained that but mdsummer45 and her son didn't seem to care. All they wanted was a decision that night." You and he will correctly be deemed as having very poor understanding of the Oath and Law.

 

I would suggest a different approach.

1) If not already done, I would IMMEDIATELY have your son write a thank you note individually to each person who was there thanking them for their consideration and asking them to approve his application. Send a respectful note to the SM too thanking him for coming to the meeting. Ideally that would be in today's mail for delivery Saturday. Failing that, in Saturday's mail for delivery Monday. If you have their e-mail addresses, that's even better. The key point is to demonstrate courtesy and consideration and to help your son's credibility. In the note to the CC, express appropriate sympathy and, if your son finds appropriate, ask if there is anything he can do for the CC.

 

2) Contact the DD if you wish. Ask whether, in the absence of a decision last night, it is appropriate for your son to put in an appeal in order to preserve rights prior to 18th birthday. I believe that, if you do anything of this sort, I would rather put in a "notice of intent to appeal" stating that he hopes the decision of the committee will be favorable but if not, your son wants to be on record prior to his 18th birthday that he believes he has met the requirements to be an Eagle Scout and will appeal to obtain an appropriate hearing.

 

3) Be considerate to the CC. Find out, if you can, the status of his mother. If there isn't a dire situation, Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, have your son contact him to find out what decision, if any, has been made. If a decision, you know how to act. If no decision, make sure that the CC knows things need to be done prior to the 18th birthday. Ask then if CC minds being contacted on Friday to obtain the decision. If, on Friday, still no decision, son should ask if CC objects to him putting in a formal appeal of no Board in order to preserve his rights.

 

It sounds as if your son acted in a very courteous and respectful manner and that built credibility. He needs to keep doing that as there may be controversy. But a review board will always listen very respectfully to a courteous and polite Scout. Credibility wil be extremely key if the word of the SM needs to be refuted.

[mdsummer45]

Well, they say patience is a virtue...so I must be a very virtuous person. Just called the DD and he apologize that he could not talk longer to me but he had a meeting to chair, he agreed that the time frame is strange but to give the benifit of the doubt and if we did not hear anything by Monday or Tuesday at the lastest to call him back and we will proceed from there. He asked if the committee realized there was a time crunch..I said yes, I told the CC that my son has one month until he turns 18. I also discovered that the DD had spoken with the SM and told him that the troop could not hold up sending out the LOR's. That is why my son suddenly received an email with a postion change reguarding the mailing of the LOR requests. Now I know the Troop realizes we are going to follow through with this to the end.

[John-in-KC]

Ms Summer,

 

Yes, we did post on top of each other.

 

I hope you have copies of the Eagle app and the Goals and Ambitions. I wish I could trust this set of leaders; at this remove, though, my antennae are twitching.

 

Your son has done his lifting for now. You can wait a very brief time, like until Monday. If you do not have a decision at that point, then you have a decision to make:

 

- Do you wait on Mr CC and the Committee?

 

- Do you write him a short business note: Dear Mr CC, I regret your personal situation. If you cannot delegate or refer this matter, then I ask you to cut to the chase and eiterh simply approve or deny advancement. That way, we can initiate appeal procedures with the District Advancement Chairman. Should you simply be silent, I will ask the District Advancement Chair and District Director for their professional interpretation of your silence. I am prepared to initiate a written appeal to the District on behalf of my son.

 

- Do you not only write that note, but complain on the record to the Chartered Partner, through the Chartered Organization Representative. Your issue would be the CC's lack of reporting matters that impact his ability to run his unit.

 

- Do you let your son make the statement of "I appeal."

 

As far as facebook goes, time for a quiet teaching point with your son ... and then let it go. The last perfect man I know who walked this earth was Jesus.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ETA: I like Neil's idea of thank you's by your son.

 

As far as CC's mom, CC's can delegate, and they can ask their COR to cover. Either is appropriate. Indeed, given his personal situation, the right thing he should have done was delegate or cover before this meeting.

 

I just spent a month out of position on eldercare. I released my volunteer duties back to appropriate folk, so the mission could be accomplished even as I dealt with other things. Two years ago, when I was a COR, I had to surrender my position to my IH because I was out of town for an extended period during a period where the COR needed to be "boots on the ground." I DO NOT give Mr CC a pass, for those reasons.

 

Sigh.

 

I agree about preserving the option of appeal.

 

NOTE: I have further edited the formal response to the CC.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[mdsummer45]

NeiLup:

 

Did you reallly read my post....I said I understood about his mother...We did not know about that situation until AFTER we asked him when he thought he would be getting back to us. We both expressed our concern ..face to face..told him we understood his situation...that is why I made the suggestion in my post that perhaps he need to ask someone else to write the response..he has a dying mother..put her first. Ask the Advancement Chairman to reply in his place. That is what I said. My son thanked each committee member personally last night and shook each persons hand and told them thank you for coming out tonight.

[raisinemright]

Unless it was a triple axe murder or something, bringing up events from 9th grade to a kid who's almost eighteen seems extremely petty.

 

Is it possible to transfer to another troop at this point?

 

Are any other scouts coming to his side as character witnesses, perhaps the scout who was taunting him with the walking stick could come by and fess up to instigating it.

 

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Mdsummer45,

 

Please feel free to accept or disregard my counsel (or anyone else's) as you see fit. I believe and hope that I and everyone else on this board have only the best interests of youth in mind.