Eagle Problems....BIG

[skeptic]

Are we seriously missing a major part of this? In our council, if it even gets to them, they lean over backwards to avoid any friction or unhappy scouts or parents. Very odd indeed, based of course on the the info' which we have been given.

[NeilLup]

Hello mdsummer,

 

These things are so unusual that there is really no "common" way. However, I would say that I am surprised and disappointed that your son was not given the opportunity to meet with the Council Advancement Committee. I believe that the National Advancement Committee works only on written materials.

 

I would suggest 3 actions:

 

a) I would ask to be allowed to visit or have your son visit the council office and view the entire package of information on which the Council Advancement Committee made its decision. My point is that it is entirely possible that they have documentation on only one side of the discussion. If that is also what is forwarded to National, then National will likely reach the same decision.

b) I would ask to talk with the Scout Executive -- top pro in the council -- and ask if he is aware of the situation and supports what has been done up to now.

c) I would call the National Council 972-580-2000 and talk with the National Advancement Group and find out how to makd sure that both sides are heard. If possible, discuss, in brief, what has happened and indicate your concern that your son's point of view may not be fairly presented in the information sent to National. Ask how to make sure that it is presented. The team leader for advancement is Bill Evans. I would ask to talk with Bill if at all possible. At this time of year, a lot of the National pros are at Philmont, so you want to move right away. If the appeal goes to the volunteer National Committee, it will likely be heard in October.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I like to see CAC's meet with folks, but in bigger or more spread out councils that isn't necessarily done, eh? I'd ask 'em to include whatever additional information yeh wanted to include with the appeal packet to national, or send it on yourself directly.

 

Checking in with your council SE is a reasonable thing, as NeilLup suggests. I wouldn't get in a long he said/she said with Bill Evans or anyone else at da national office. Just find out how to send additional materials and how best to make sure your side is included.

 

Can yeh share which council you're in? There really aren't many servin' your state.

 

Do what yeh can, be respectful, and make your case. This last appeal round will take a bit longer at this time of year, so be patient. At this point, a lot of other folks have been lookin' at this a long while. If your council is generally one that's on the ball, then while you've got a decent chance with Irving, I think yeh also need to be prepared for a "No." Perhaps a tough lesson for your son, but maybe a good one. I'm sure regardless of da outcome he'll continue his record of achievement and his personal growth in college.

 

Beavah

 

[NealOnWheels]

According to "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" in reference to Council appeals...

 

"All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained."

 

They obviously did not handle it correctly but at this point it does not matter.

 

As others suggest it is time to contact the National office and find out how to procede.

[molscouter]

Is the fact that the council seemingly did not follow procedure an additional appealable point?

 

Get a look at what was/is being forwarded ASAP (hopefully it has not been forwarded already). They are stacking the deck against you at National.(This message has been edited by molscouter)

[NeilLup]

Hello NealonWheels,

 

Good name, but you spell it wrong

 

That omission is appealable, I believe, but I would rather suggest that it just be one additional item to be added to the information to National in documenting that procedures have not been followed. I wouldn't wait until National made their decision and then appeal again.

 

I do have concern that a very one-sided picture is being sent to National and that mdsummer and her son should do everything possible to make sure that matters are considered objectively and fairly.

[ScoutNut]

"I wouldn't wait until National made their decision and then appeal again."

 

 

They can't. National's decision is final. There are no more appeals after that.

[Beavah]

Nah, before everyone goes sailin' off into the blustery winds of outrage and condemnation, NealonWheels isn't readin' his copy of ACP&P right, eh?

 

Only the body charged with hearing the initial appeal is obligated to do a review to determine the facts (including interviews and written statements). In this case, the body hearin' the initial review for the BSA was the district, and they did that appropriately.

 

Subsequent appeals can proceed based on just the written record (and indeed that's all that's used at National).

 

Those of you familiar with da regular justice system will recognize that this parallels that system, where the court of original jurisdiction is the trier of facts, while appellate courts limit themselves to correcting clear errors in fact and deciding questions of law.

 

So there's nothing amiss in what this council did. In fact all levels, from da troop on up, have done a very fine job of properly followin' the appeals process.

 

It's really hard for me to imagine that there's any new information at this point, eh? Mdsummer45 and her son have written several letters as part of the appeal thus far. I think they should feel free and be welcome to include any additional statement they want, but I expect they've already made the best case they can. The council is goin' to send the full thing off to Irving, they're not goin' to leave off Mdsummer's son's letters or statements or da rest wouldn't make any sense.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Nike]

I just have to wonder what the big gaping hole is here that none of us can see, literally. I'd love to see a redacted copy of this file.

 

Does anyone know how many appeals get sent to National every year and what the turn down rate is?

[mdsummer45]

Beavah:

 

Just to clarify a point you have made.

 

"It's really hard for me to imagine that there's any new information at this point, eh? Mdsummer45 and her son have written several letters as part of the appeal thus far. I think they should feel free and be welcome to include any additional statement they want, but I expect they've already made the best case they can."

 

 

I have not written any letters and the only time my son has written anything was when he made his presentation to the Troop committee. His appeals letters were just that, asking for an appeal to the next level, not presenting his "case". When asked what information the council used to make their decision, the CAC said that it was the letter from the DAC to my son. When asked what information they had from my son, the CAC said we only had the letter he wrote asking for an appeal. That letter did not present any information as to how my son felt he demonstrated scout spirit, it only stated that he was appealing the decision of the district. Had he know that he would not be "interviewed" at the council level( which , now I'm going to disagree with ya here..my read of page 33 of the ACP&P, I feel states that at both the district level AND the council level ALL parties MUST be interviewed or written statements obtained. The Council level did not do that.) he certainly would have presented his "side"(for lack of a better word). In fact, prior to the district level meeting , it was specifically asked of the person chairing the meeting if my son should write something to present to the district people. This is what he was told No, this is not a trial, you do not have to prepare anything. We are just going to have a conversation. So...your assumption is not quite right...no letters from me at all and only the Troop committee presentation information from my son(which according to the CAC they did not see, use , have???)

[NeilLup]

Hello Mdsummer,

 

If you still have the contact information, I would contact the Council Advancement Chairman again, indicate that there is a different point of view which you and your son would like to have considered and ask whether the Council Advancement Committee would be willing to consider that alternative point of view before rendering a final decision and making an appeal to the National Council necessary.

 

They probably won't but you don't lose anything by trying. It would appear that the Council Advancement Committee simply looked to make sure that the formal procedures were followed without attempting to to determine whether a fair and unbiased decision had been rendered at the Troop and District level. It then becomes absolutely essential to be sure that both points of view are presented to and are considered by the National Council. You likely will need to take the initiative in being sure that your son's point of view makes it to National -- it doesn't seem from what you have written that your local council sees any obligation to do that.

[Beavah]

I feel states that at both the district level AND the council level ALL parties MUST be interviewed or written statements obtained.

 

Yah, you're welcome to feel whatever yeh like, eh? It's just an internet forum, and I'm just a silly furry critter offerin' a perspective. I just don't think you're likely to get too far with that, eh?

 

"Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained."

 

Da key is the wording "the initial appeal". If yeh then read da previous paragraphs, you learn that if the original "no" decision was made by the troop, then the initial appeal is to the district. That's how it happened for your son. But in some councils, the district BOR might be the initial "no", in which case the initial appeal is to the council advancement committee. Whichever it is, the initial appeal body should do the interviews and such. For subsequent appeals it's not expected. I confess that I still think it's a nice thing to do, at least in councils small enough to be able to do it.

 

I think yeh do what NeilLup suggested and call the council advancement chair and let 'em know you weren't well informed about da process, and you'd like them to reconsider after they get your son's written statement which you'll submit. And yours if yeh like (I'd just caution yeh that you limit it to what you personally observed, and avoid some of the hearsay and stuff that you've repeated here).

 

If not, then ask that they include your statements in the appeal packet to National.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing Nike.

 

mdsummer45,

 

What exactly happened? We don't seem to have the whole story.

[BadenP]

This is really a moot point at this point in time. National WILL NOT reverse the district/council decisions unless there was a blatant abuse of the rules and procedures in place for advancement, and that's a fact. As I pointed out earlier when I was a DE I had a similiar type of situation occur, the boy met with the district Key 3, the SM, Adv Chair and the whole situation was handled in about an hour to everyones satisfaction.

 

I agree with ED that there is some crucial information missing here because this situation should never have become the mess it has. While I feel sorry for the boy if the appropriate committees and the council do not believe he deserves the Eagle then thats that and it is time for the boy and parent to move on. There is more to life than being an Eagle Scout and he still has all of his scouting experiences and achievements to be proud of.

[ljnrsu]

Like one or two others from this forum I also have offered her advice, understanding and encouragement in this matter via PMs and e-mails

To answer Nike and Ed there are no big gaping holes. Mdsummer has given the whole story and nothing big or major has been omitted from her posts concerning this situation. I can state that unequivocally. Shortly after receiving District Committee letter she faxed me the following: 2pg letter dated 11/3/08 from SM to her son, 5pg letter dated 4/16/08 from SM to Troop Committee, 2pg letter dated 4/18/08 Troop Committee decision, and 5pg letter dated 5/28/08 District Committee decision, her sons 8pg presentation to Troop Committee. We also had 3 phone conversations Thus after she received Councils decision and her phone calls to Council and National. Yesterday she sent me Council Advancement Committee letter.

Thank you NeilLup for giving her Nationals phone # and Bill Evans name before I could.

Districts decision was not a shock as SM for the Troop is listed as Boy Scout Leader Training Coordinator and Brownsea Scoutmaster- Jr leader training on Districts web page on Councils web site. As some have already said good ole boy network. While it seems something is missing nothing is. It is just how somethings have become convoluted in subsequent letters.

 

 

(Edited at request of the poster) --Hops (This message has been edited by a staff member.)