maybe next time

[Bob White]

Would those that care follow the rules, so that the scout had a better chance of achieving the recognition based on what he was required by the BSA to do, as opposed to what the bor wanted him to do?

 

I would hope so.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Why is the assumption always the BOR was in error? It is very possible this Scout wasn't ready to advance. It is also very possible the BOR was out of line in denying this Scout advancement.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Number 1, because there are three times more adults present then scouts so the odds are better that the adult screwed up.

 

Number 2, the low number of leaders who are trained and know how to do a board of review correctlty.

 

Number 3, by the time the scout gets to the bor he has been tested several time, the members of board have not.

 

Number 4, in this case not one thing has been posted by LisaBob that shows that the scout did not complete a requirement, and that is what has to happen befpre the board can choose to not advance the scout.

 

Number 5, not one thing posted by LisaBob on this incident shows that the members of the board knew of, or followed, the required actions for denying a scout advancement.

 

Number 6, when things go wrong the first thing a responsible leader does is look at what they might have done wrong or could have done better that could have precipitated the problem. Poor leaders just blame others and never evaluate their own behavior.

 

I don't blame adults I get as much information as I can about the problem and look at who did what steps right or wrong. The fact that in most cases with bor problems the adults did not follow the program rules is their problem not mine.

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Number 1, because there are three times more adults present then scouts so the odds are better that the adult screwed up.

 

That makes no sense.

 

Number 2, the low number of leaders who are trained and know how to do a board of review correctlty.

 

Making generalizations is seldom correct.

 

Number 3, by the time the scout gets to the bor he has been tested several time, the members of board have not.

 

You don't know that to be true! This could be the 100th BOR each member has sat on! That's tested, my friend!

 

Number 4, in this case not one thing has been posted by LisaBob that shows that the scout did not complete a requirement, and that is what has to happen befpre the board can choose to not advance the scout.

 

The details were specifically left out for the reasons given. Based on that, nothing was posted that indicated the Scout did complete all the requirements.

 

Number 5, not one thing posted by LisaBob on this incident shows that the members of the board knew of, or followed, the required actions for denying a scout advancement.

 

As I said, details were omitted for a reason.

 

Number 6, when things go wrong the first thing a responsible leader does is look at what they might have done wrong or could have done better that could have precipitated the problem. Poor leaders just blame others and never evaluate their own behavior.

 

Something doesn't have to go wrong for a boy not to pass a BOR. Placing all the blame directly on the adult leadership is not seeing the whole picture. It's like a marriage - give & take - there are two groups involved - leaders & Scouts - each has a part - and each or both could not be doing their part.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Ah, but Ed, a scout can tie a square knot 100 times, and if each times it turns out a "granny" (is that sexist?) then he tied it wrong 100 times. If a person sits on a BOR and turns down the scout for rank 100 times and never sends the scout a letter telling him what to do, advises him when the next Board of Review will be done or explains the appeal procedure then all that has happened is the BORer has done it wrong 100 times. Perhaps not likley but it's possible.

 

The Board of Review is not a place to make an issue of Scout Spirit. That is in the Scoutmaster's corner. Now, if members of the Committee have issues with the "scout spirit" of a youth, then that committee member and the scoutmaster should be having a sit down with the youth and talk about whats going on. Could be a lot of things, and things that need to be handled now, not later. I am not sure BOR are "permitted" to turn down a rank based on Scout Spirit or attitude or whatever the troop calls it, but I accept its done. If a Board of Review turns down a boy a scoutmaster has brought to the Board for a Review, how is the scoutmaster informed? What adjustments are made to the scoutmaster so he/she does not bring unqualified scouts to the board?

 

I understand that it gets downright tiresome hearing that the ills of the BSA is brought about by untrained or trained and not using it adults, but what is the alternative? Blame it on the kids? Blame it on the parents? Blame it on society? They are all possible culprits but in the end, who do we each have the most control over? Ourselves, right? Its nice to be able to blame others, but how do you fix what is wrong?

[evmori]

OGE,

 

I'm not trying to place blame anywhere! All I am saying is not everything is the fault of the adult leadership! Would you agree?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gunny2862]

Perhaps one could ask questions of knowledgeable Scouters, possibly find out what(if anything) and why, they would do things differently?

 

Perhaps be "mentored" a little by those older, wiser Scouts?

 

Of course I prefer my mentoring with the assumption that I didn't purposely mess up any prior actions.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Eamonn]

Lisabob

Seems I read what I wanted to read!!

Maybe the fact that I had been invited to sit in on an Eagle Scout BOR yesterday, in some way played into this?

Any which way!!

Seems I got the wrong end of the stick.

Please accept my apology.

By the way the BOR I attended went great two 17 year old Lads who did really well!!

 

As for asking a Scout to "Restart".

I have done this.

It was an Eagle Scout BOR.

I knew the Lad well and have known his family for a very long time.

I'd seen him from the time he was a little fellow in Cub Scouts. I had been his Jamboree SM.

He really was/is a nice lad.

At the time of the review, our District Advancement Chair wasn't around due to work. I was District Chair and was using the BOR to help involve more people from the community, by inviting them to sit in on BOR's. (Our District has District BOR Eagle Scout rank)

The Lad was close to being 18 and was into "Goth"! His hair was dyed jet black, he wore his Scout uniform, but had what looked like spiked armlets on his wrists and a dog chain around his neck!!

I have invited the president of the local Business and Professional Womens League to sit on this BOR.

A nice elderly Lady who was dressed like the female who is running for President of the USA!! Got to love them two piece suits!!

The lad came in and didn't make eye contact with anyone. His head was hung low and his shoes must have been the most interesting things he'd ever seen! He sat there looking at them.

Very much like you describe he just didn't seem interested in what was going on and had about as much enthusiasm as a dead fish.

I asked the board if they would excuse us for a minute.

We, that is the Lad, the member of his Troop Committee and myself left the room.

His Dad was waiting in the other room.

We got together and I explained that he just wasn't doing such a good job.

I asked him if he was trying to fail?

Of course he said that he wasn't.

We talked for a couple of minutes about the effort that he had put in to get this far.

I reminded him about the times when he wouldn't shut up!! How he had been the ring leader in getting most of the Jamboree Troop to attend the Buddhist Services (The family are Methodists) I went on to tell him what he was doing wasn't cool and how I really wanted him to go back in there and give it his best shot.

We all went back and started over.

He was a different kid.

He did pass and is an Eagle Scout who now serves in the US Air-force. His hair is no longer jet black and last time I seen him there was no sign of the dog collar.

 

I hate to see any Lad fail.

That doesn't mean that I'm not for meeting the requirements.

Some of the Boy Scouts in the Ship seem to have a hard time accepting that a requirement is a requirement.

Of course I don't bash them over the head or try to drill things into them.

Keeping things as friendly and up-beat as is possible seems to work for me!

Sure we have Scouts that do try to pull the wool over my eyes and pull a fast one!! I try to make light of it and still let them know that I didn't come up the Thames in a bubble!

Again I'm sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick.

Eamonn.

[SctDad]

Lisa

 

Take this for what you want. I have seen a lot of posts about 'maybe the lad was uncomfortable' and things like that. Maybe you ought to try another BOR for teh boy. maybe while you are out camping. That might be his element. Maybe when he is having fun he will give better answers. Maybe he needs to remember that scouts is not all meetings in the winter inside. That there are other activities.

 

I would say give the boy another shot, like someone said, maybe he was having a bad day.

 

THen again maybe he just doesn't have the scout spirit. I don't know.

 

If it were me that had to do this, (IT IS NOT) I would give him another chance and judge his scout spirit along the way in different activities.

 

Hey, if you like what I have to say, tell a friend, if you don't, tell me

[Bob White]

I would like someone to explain how communication skills fit into the Scout Spirit requirement.

 

No one ever said that the adult was always wrong. But it seems to be a regular strategy by many posters on this board to blame everything and everyone else (including the scouts they are supposed to be serving) rather than take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Nothing that LisaBob has told us suggests that the scout did not complete a requirement. Rather the adults became frustrated with the scouts communication skills that day, and rather than coach or councel him through a non-requirement, they chose to not pass him AND they did so in a way, that by her description, violates the BSA advancement policies.

 

Would a memntor help her, quite probably. Are strangers on the Internet a good place to find mentors? No.

 

Would training and a better understanding of youth and the program help the committee. I think more knowledge serves everyone better, don't you.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Page 30, ACP&P (#33088), 2007 edition:

 

"The Scout reviews what he did for his rank. From this review, it can be determined whether he did what he was supposed to do. The review also reveals what kind of an experience the Scout is having in the troop. With that knowledge, the troop leaders can shape the program to meet the needs and interests of the Scouts.

 

The board should attempt to determine the Scout's ideals and goals. The board should make sure that a good standard of performance has been met. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure the candidate recognizesa dn understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school and community."

 

INHERENT IN THOSE TWO PARAGRAPHS is the necessity for the Scout to respond to questions coherently. To go way back to Lisa's post 3 in this thread, a "shrug" and a "dunno" do not answer the National Council's intent.

 

Further, by issuing the letter and advising on appeal procedures, Lisa's troop has provided the Scout two different paths to completion. One is the "here are our expectations when you return." The other is "If you believe we are out of line, you may contact the District Advancement Chair, who will investigate and determine, if need be over-riding the unit decision."

 

Lisa, you and your Board made a tough, not especially joyful, call. Do not second-guess yourself, do not allow yourself to be second-guessed by us. You were there, you know the full details. You know how well-trained (or not) the board was, and you know the conditions under which the Scout participated.

 

Enjoy both the feedback and the active reading.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Lisabob]

Hmm. Noting that the internet is not always the best place to find mentors is one of the few things Bob and I appear to agree upon in this thread. So let me just make real clear for you Bob that I am not seeking your mentorship. Perhaps now, secure in that knowledge, you will be relieved of the terrible burden you apparently feel to bludgeon people left and right with what you think you know.

 

 

[evmori]

And nothing in Lisabob's post said the Scout completed all the requirements either! We don't know and assuming we do is wrong. So let's drop it!

 

John-in-KC,

 

Based on the information provided, you are correct! The Scouts responses where not what the requirement asks for.

 

Someone else posted that maybe a do-over BOR for this Scout was in order. I tend to agree. He could of had a lousy day & just wasn't up to it. A 2nd BOR should give the board a better read on this Scout.

 

What you did was like tough love, Lisabob - something unpleasant that needed to be done.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup]

Came on this thread rather late. I would only note that sometimes, turning a Scout down at some stage for advancement is doing him a great favor and very much in line with the aims of the BSA. Kids don't get told "you didn't meet the requirements" very often nowadays.

 

So if you, in polite and courteous way, told him that, told him why and told him what he needs to do to pass, you arguably are doing much more for his citizenship, character and fitness than giving a courtesy pass.

 

I would imagine that most of us on the list could say that being turned down for something at one time or another was one of the most motivational things that ever happened to us. I know that is true for me.

 

That doesn't make it any easier or more fun for you. But, as I have heard in training courses, anyone can deal with the easy kids and the easy cases. It takes the great leaders to handle the tough ones.

 

Thank you for lifting the big rocks.

 

Best wishes,

 

Neil Lupton

[Bob White]

LisaBob, please rest assured that the role of mentor was neither offered nor implied on my part. You have no more presented evidence that the Scout failed than you have that the bor members did their job correctly.

 

No one knows if you were confrontational with the scout in your approach, no one knows if you asked clear and understandable questions. No one knows what the personal relationship is between the scout and individual members of the bor that might have made him uncomfortable or uncommunicative.

 

Here is what we we do know... nothing you said about the scout suggests that a BSA requirement was not completed. And to deny him advancement if the requirements are done is a violation of the BSA advancement policies that the bor is responsible for following.

 

And if he did the requirements then you can't very well write a letter saying that he didn't. And if you explain to him the appeal process availabe to him, then your decision would likely be overturned by the next review level.

 

What John offered is correct, BUT those instructions from the advancement manual are for the adult not the scout. They tell what the bor members are to do and accomplish, the scout never sees this handbook and has no need to. The purpose of the handbook is to train and control the behaviour of the adults not the scout.

 

I would agree that I would be a poor choice for you as a mentor, as would any stranger on the Internet (especially the ones willing to always agree with you, since you can learn nothing new from them.) But I think it would benefit you to find someone local willing to challenge what you think your are doing right, to help you think about how you could have done it better, and to gain a clearer understanding of the role a bor plays in the process.