ScoutMaster removal

[Bob White]

Hi It's Me

Where exactly do you feel I was wrong?

 

Who owns the Scout Unit? The Charter Organization

 

Who is responsible for selecting and approving unit leaders? The Charter Organization.

 

Who has the authority to alter a unit volunteers role in the unit? The Troop Committee Chair and the Charter Organization Representative.

 

Can a Council remove an adult volunteer from a unit position?

Only by permanently revoking his or her membership in the BSA.

 

Is the Council/District responsible for operating the unit or for a specific set of support services?

A specific set of support services

 

If I am wrong show me the evidence that what I shared was wrong.

 

By the way liability entered briefly and erroneosly in the 11th post not the 18th. It was from ASM915 who mentioned it, however liability is not an issue since there is no personal injury or property damage involved in removing the volunteer.

 

Removing a volunteer is not the big deal that so many here make it out to be. Volunteers get their responsibilities changed or taken away every day. If you are the leader of a volunteer group and lack the ability to evaluate performance and make difficult decisions for the good of the group, then leadership is probably not your calling.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility.

 

Who is responsible for selecting and approving unit leaders? The Charter Organization.

 

OK Bob, which is it? You have stated both. Would you please clear this up?

 

Thanks.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Its Me]

 

Here is where BW is wrong.

 

BW Wrote:

As an ASM you have no say in the matter. You are welcome to give your opinion to the Charter organization representative and the Committee Chair. But determining who the Scoutmaster is is not your role or responsibility.

 

This is an extremely harsh language and a very black and white approach to scouting. The posters is all at one a consumer of the BSA program, a volunteer supporter and a youth leader. To put this person in a box as if a paid professional in a divisional labor force is an overly simplistic view of the volunteer youth organizations.

 

BW Wrote

District personal have no authority in the matter either, you do best to keep this at the unit level.

 

What don't call district? A little touchy there Bob? Why not call district for matters of unit operation either as a concerned parent a unit leader or whatever. They would likely get good solid advice. Although NeiLup has a quality reply.

 

 

[Bob White]

Ok Its Me, I understand that you don't like what I posted, but what you have not addressed is where I was wrong.

 

Whether or not you like what I post is irrelevant, what is important is that it was factual.

 

So I go back to my question. Do you have any evidence that the information I gave was incorrect?

 

 

 

 

[jmwalston]

I don't see how you can say that because someone didn't like the way information was delivered that the information was wrong. BW was correct in regards to the relationship of SM and ASM within the troop organization. And the advice on keeping it a an unit level is not unwarranted either. Involving the COR is involving the District, since they are a member of the District Committee. I feel that they would prefer to handle any problems in-house before having it kicked upstairs. When I was an UC, I recall only one unit problem that went to the District level and it was over a husband and wife who had control of a unit and the finances of it. The CO sought advice on what was the best resolution to the problem and it was simply a matter of removing the wife as unit Treasurer to another Committee position. It all could've and should've been taken care at the unit level. I would expect a concerned parent or leader to ask the CO about the program rather than jump to the District.(This message has been edited by jmwalston)

[BadenP]

Mr Walston

 

Since the COR/CO approves all adult leadership they must also be involved in a leaders removal as they are the only ones authorized to do so under charter. To try to keep this from them would result in even further strained relations between the unit and CO. Additionally the CO is not part of district, the COR is a voting member at council executive meetings.

[Its Me]

 

Your two statements aren't completely true.

 

This Statement:

As an ASM you have no say in the matter.

And this statement:

But determining who the Scoutmaster is is not your role or responsibility.

 

Don't entirely match this statement:

You are welcome to give your opinion to the Charter organization representative and the Committee Chair.

 

You were wrong because if he has no say-so and as an adult leader and has no responsibility for the program than he shouldn't even talk to the committee or CO.

 

You were wrong when you said: "you have NO; authority". Bob even you would recognize that not all authority is derived my the scoutmaster's handbook. As an ASM you would have applied authority to question the conduct of a SM who is harming the unit. Or any adult leader involved in the program.

 

You were wrong when you said: "you have no responsibility." The ASM certainly has the responsibility to discuss issues of concern regarding a SM's conduct with the committee the CO and even District.

 

You were wrong to give the bad and empty advice by telling an ASM to go pound sand regarding a scoutmasters conduct. You didn't even care what the issue was.

 

Finally, the poster's original post was only to know what are the procedures. Prowling for a fight, you picked up on BrotherHood's post and just wanted to thump you chest on your knowledge of the handbook. That's wrong too.

 

You were right on one thing. Some dumb posters (me) would take your bait and get sucked into a flame war with you regarding an irrelevant issue.

 

 

[jmwalston]

BP,

 

I have not advocated keeping the CO in the dark. I consider the unit level to be the CO/COR level as well. I merely stated that technically the District is involved if the COR is consultated. As to strained District/Council relations with the COs, my experience has been that it is caused by lack of CO involvement with the District, not direct involvement of the District with the CO.

[Bob White]

At some point in time Its Me and some other posters will need to develop a more substantial method of discussionthan "uh ih your wrong, despite the facts" if they are planning to discuss the BSA program and its elements. To say a poster is wrong about scouting merely because you disagree is a flimsy hook to hang your hat on.

 

If you have evidence in the way of a BSA resource that is contrary to what a person states about the BSA then you should share it. But to simply say a person is wrong without any evidence, other than your own opinion, is unlikely to convince anyone else, unless of course they are as equally unprepared to discuss the matter.

 

Its Me you credit me with statements that I did not make. That too is a very poor way to engage in a discussion and expect people to grant your opinion any validity.

 

The facts I shared with dampcamper were all correct. And again, I welcome you or others who know of any BSA resource that says otherwise to please share them with all of us.

 

 

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Bob White, funny little critter with colorful feathers but a brain the size of a large pea seed, runs in groups when it would likely be better served by taking flight; sure hope I'm not in that Patrol in my WB course in two weeks!

 

I digress! BW where you are WRONG, YUP WRONG, /yelling is that you assume that the unit that the OP is in fits the BSA model in terms of structure! Not all units operate as by the book as you assume. Believe it or not there are units where the SM has far more authority than the CC. Sometimes this is due to not enough proper training, sometimes it is due to other factors. Just as there is more than one way in which Troops are structured there can be more than one way to handle such disputes. In some Troops the ASM('s) have lots of input into who is chosen as the SM. Many CO's leave the day to day and year to year running of the Troop including the retention of Adult leaders in the hands of those currently serving in that unit providing little more than a place and a rubber stamp of a name for approval.

 

BW you say that this should be handled at the unit level and in this you are CORRECT however in the current training guide for Unit Commissoneers there is a page or so devoted to helping to remove volunteers (the actual page numbers and number of pages escapes me at the moment but they are there. Perhaps I'll add a quick post later with a better citation.) which leads me to believe that one of my duties as a UC is to assist units with this if requested, under the direction of the DC and/or DE! There are other reasons that I can think of that an ASM should contact his UC, DC, or DE if he feels that his Troop's SM needs replacing. Possibly the ASM is the wrong person for the Troop he is involved with and a district Scouter may know of a unit in need and more to his liking that might be suggested.

 

 

[Bob White]

Ah yes, when you can't discuss the topic using knowledge, then attack the poster with insults.

 

BrotherhoodWWW

Whether or not the unit operates 'by the book' has nothing to do with the structure of the BSA, the roles of the various levels of scouting, OR the correctness of my statements.

 

Since you mentioned it let's look at what the current Commissioner Fieldbook says.

In Chapter 9 How to Remove a Volunteer under the sub heading "WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY"

"Who has the authority to remove a volunteer? A good rule of thumb is this; The person or group with the authority to appoint a volunteer has the authority to remove and replace that volunteer."

 

so Brotherhoodwww, who selects and approves the Scoutmaster?

 

The purpose of this chapter is to explain to the commissioner that at what their role is,that is if asked, to train the unit as to who can remove the volunteer how to do it with as much damage control as possible. That means be private, be calm, be polite, be business-like.

 

It also ends with two thiungs to remember. 1)Do what is best for the scouts, 2)The BSA has the right to choose its leaders.

 

Both points that I shared in my posts.

 

In other words the role of the Commissioner is to train the leaders. Did you not read the posts were I said that the role of the District is to train and support, but had no authority in removing the leader? That is exactly what the Commissioners Fieldbook says.

 

If you are to say that I was wrong then provide evidence that I am wrong, keep your personal insults to yourself please.

 

[BrotherhoodWWW]

I am truely sorry you took my tounge-in-cheek poor attempt at humor as a personal insult; it surely was not meant as one.

 

BW accurately quoted the Fieldbook for Unit service. The job of the district/ council is to train volunteers. However it also states that this proceedure is for the removal due to reasons other than certian "bad acts" We as posters can only guess at the reasons why the OP wants to remove his Troop's SM. Regardless of the reasons an ASM should contact his UC, COR and CO IH!

Two of those three have final authority of who serves in the Unit!

 

BW we may just have to agree to disagree about wheather you are right or wrong. I belive that in some units the fact remains that the ASM does have an impact in who is chosen as SM. It may or may not be a direct relationship but to discount the possibility because of your narrowly held ideals of any organizational structure within the BSA is a short sighted, head in the sand position IMHO! After all the BSA establishes "guidelines" for Chartering partners not a "this is the only way to do things" manual.

[Lisabob]

" Bob White, funny little critter with colorful feathers but a brain the size of a large pea seed, runs in groups when it would likely be better served by taking flight; sure hope I'm not in that Patrol in my WB course in two weeks!"

------------------

 

Oy! Watch the critter slights! Apparently you've never met a flock of angry bobwhites before...

 

Lisa'bob

A Good Old BOBWHITE too!

 

[evmori]

Bob never responds to my posts because he has me on ignore. I would PM him, but he told me he will ignore them, too. So would someone please ask him which statement of his is correct? They are:

 

"But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility."

 

"Who is responsible for selecting and approving unit leaders? The Charter Organization."

 

Thanks

 

[NJCubScouter]

It seems to me that most of this "debate" is really about semantics. Everybody seems to agree that an ASM who has a problem with the SM (that has not been resolved through direct discussion) can go to the CR/CC to discuss the matter, and make whatever suggestions he/she wants. Of course, the ASM should realize that the CR may decide that the SM should remain, and possibly that the ASM should not.

 

The one area of real disagreement seems to be whether it is appropriate for the ASM to speak with someone on the district level about the problem. It seems logical to me that the decision to seek advice from the district level is one that should be made by the CR/IH -- and possibly also by the CC -- but not by the ASM.