NeilLup Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I agree, Ed. In fact, I would consider the former response to be "blowing them off" and might expect it to provoke that old bugaboo response "The council never does anything for us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 It is not the councils role or responsibility to clean up a unit's dirty laundry. Yes, the council is there to help but they are not their to do the units work. Unit leqasdership is the units responsibility. The council can teach you haow to do a better job of selecting leaders, they can provide resources to help the leader be successful, they can help the unit in motivation and recognition of the leader. But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility, nopt the councils. If the unit wants to see this as the council not helping, then the unit has training issues. They do not know or understand the roles of the various levels of program, and they need more training...the council can help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 >>then the unit has training issues. They do not know or understand the roles of the various levels of program, and they need more training...the council can help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croushorn Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 "But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility, not the councils." How about a pretty specific "what if": A SM behaves in a manner described in another thread by preventing a Scout from attending dinner, using what some would identify as profane language, and violating YP... if the committee doesn't have a problem with that (don't be so sure they wouldn't), can there be no recourse from Council? Let's say upon notification of the incident, Council would 'strongly recommend' the CO replace the SM based upon the three issues. But if the CO digs in their heels and refuses, what then? Pull their charter? Refuse to accept his app the following recharter year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwalston Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 If it is a matter of YP violation as your scenario suggests, the SE can remove the SM from membership. He doesn't have to recommend the removal to the CO, he can revoke the SM's membership himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility, nopt the councils. Wait! I thought choosing & removing leaders was the responsibility of the Charter Organization? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croushorn Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 From the adult application: " Leadership Requirements The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, and subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law. " I think Council's 'authority' very much goes beyond just YP issues. I personally would fully involve the DE at a minimum when there are issues within the Troop leadership. If for no other reason so they are aware of what is going on; at best they can give you some good unbiased advice. At worst they are put on notice that there may be bigger problems building within the unit that may eventually warrant their interjection. Not so sure about the rest of you, we haven't had a unit commish in about the past 5 years, if we dont count a snow bird as an active commish even longer than that. So I don't have a non-unit or non-CO member to bounce these issues off of other than the DE. Luckily places like this forum and other Scouting relationships can help with these kind of dilemmas. I am continually surprised by some folks attitudes and outright resentment towards their Council. Are they going to be perfect in all of our eyes all the time? Heck no. Do you get along all the time with everyone you work with? They are the professionals and should be able to assist when problems arise. Dont be so eager to lock them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I really do like what Neil said; the fact of the matter is forced change of a SM or CC is a traumatic event, and needs to be done with care. Commish and the Professional Service will probably need to support the IH/COR/CC as they resolve the almost inevitable drama that goes with a forced change of key leadership. I assume, of course, anyone having a disagreement with a SM has already had more than one friendly cup of coffee someplace, trying to identify and resolve differences. From this remove I cannot tell if the disagreements are in terms of the program, the practices, or the people are simply not meshing. I also assume there are no urgent, legally reportable issues where the SE must be the first person notified (in other words, YP). I wish the original poster well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I think the important thing to learn from this discussion is that the council is a resource the unit can use to help them choose the best course of action. It wouldn't be correct for the unit to expect that "council" will step in and remove a leader or otherwise take care of the problem. It would not be fair to accuse the council of never doing anything for the unit if what they offer is guidance, ideas, and wise counsel instead of stepping in and taking over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM915 Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 GW is correct, sort of. Technically the Unit and CO can not sued. Then again anyone can try to file a suit on anything, even if they no they can't win but just to cause a ruckus. Whether they have grounds to and can win are a different story. just because someone cannot sue the CO does not mean that they cannot go after Council. If I remember correctly, when our FD and DE are out trying to recruit new CO's the pitch is that the CO can not be sued because they fall under the umbrella of Council's or National's. policy. National or Council would have to fight the battle in court not the unit. Sooo, it is advisable to have the Council aware of the issue, and possibly giving advice to the unit on the direction to proceed, because they, the Council could be drug into the problem in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I'm confused. Who would go after the council, and for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I would not argue with the ascertion that no unit has ever been sucessfully sued for the removal of a leader (per BW). However, I would argue that the following statement is false - Technically the Unit and CO can not be sued. I can think of a scenario where someone could be very successful in a lawsuit against the CO. But the CO would have to make some very, very bad decisions. For example: Say a unit leader is falsely accused of violating Youth Protection. If the CO makes this a very public issue (e.g. gives interviews to the local paper, etc.) and removes the unit leader for the said cause (YP violation) with little or no proof, I can envision the ex-leader filing a very legitment lawsuit against the CO. On the other hand, if the CO does not make public statements - which could make them vulnerable to a slander suit - and they simply dismiss the leader without explanation, then I don't see the ex-leader having any recourse but to accept it. The short of it, if youre going to remove a leader (as a CO), you ought to keep it a private matter unless you have very credible proof for any public statements one might make. Im just saying anyone can be successfully sued, if you make enough dumb choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its Me Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Wow! what a great learning experience for the scouts to watch one set of moms and dads sue their SM or CO for dismissal of the SM. The scouts could go to court meet lawyers, give depositions, "yes sir, he yelled at me in front of other scouts (sniff) for throwing an empty water bottle into the fire, I believe I am damaged for life". They could look up precedence, Biloxi Church of Christ Vs Samuel Gibson Scoutmaster 1979, failure to properly train the boys in the art of pioneering skills. And we reached "its a liability issue" by post 18. No record but pretty darn good. BW is wrong. This is very post is proof why its better to go talk to your local council for counsel on these matter than to post a short description on an Internet forum. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy scouter.com and read it every day. But this thread went astray faster than usual. (This message has been edited by Its Me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Please. Bob White is not "wrong". The unit can certainly go to the district or council and lay out the problem. The council may not offer much help at all. Or they may offer all kinds of wise counsel and sage advice as to how to proceed. You have nothing to lose by asking. But they will NOT make the decision for the unit. They will NOT step in on behalf of the unit and tell the SM he is fired. The decision to remove a unit leader and to carry it out is solely the responsibility of the COR/CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 The original poster, Daycamper, is an ASM who does not like his SM, thinks the SM is doing a bad job, and wants to know how to get rid of the SM. The reality is that a ASM can NOT remove a SM. What an ASM can, and SHOULD DO, is talk to the unit's CC and COR to tell them of his problems with the SM. It is then up to the CC and/or the COR (NOT the ASM) to decide if THEY want to ask their UC and/or their DE for input on the situation. Do I think that it is a good idea to ask the UC and DE for help and advise - Yes, I do. However the request has to come from the CC and/or COR. It is not the job of the ASM to do so. The bottom line is, if there is no YP issue that is mandated to be reported to the SE, a council will not, on the say so of a single ASM, terminate a SM's membership in a particular unit - or the BSA. Also, if the COR (and the CO the COR represents) decides that they feel it is simply a personality conflict between the ASM and the SM, and that they are backing the SM 100%, there is really NOTHING more that the ASM can do. Except of course, to find another Troop that follows BSA policies and rules better than the current Troop does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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