Adult Patrol V Leadership Team

[Eamonn]

Some might say that this is like splitting hairs.

Maybe they are right?

I suppose if you have something that isn't broken it's kinda silly to fix it.

BrentAllen,

My dear friend, please don't think I'm in ant way trying to pick a fight or pick on you or he way things are done down in Dunwoody. I'm not.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of adults who are adult leaders having Adult Patrols.

Re:

"If you want to be an ASM in our Troop, you must attend SM/ASM training and ITOLS (along with YP), as a beginning. Candidates must also pass most of the T-FC requirements, get CPR/AED trained along with Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. This is not a short process, and it gives us plenty of time to observe the Scouter to see if he fits in with our program. If he does, upon completion of all the required training, he/she is welcomed into the adult patrol, with much fanfare.

If the CO has mandated that all this Training is required? More power to the CO.

I do however have a problem with:

"This is not a short process, and it gives us plenty of time to observe the Scouter to see if he fits in with our program. If he does, upon completion of all the required training, he/she is welcomed into the adult patrol, with much fanfare.

The selection of leaders is just not done this way!!

What happens if someone feels that the new ASM doesn't fit in? Volunteer Troop Leaders are not in charge of "Hiring and Firing".

Re:

" We do this in WB and in SM training,"

No we don't!!

While the participants role play being members of a Patrol and the Staff Member selected to be SPL also role plays being a youth member, the staff at Wood Badge do not try and form any sort of Adult Patrol.

While of course the 21st Century course is not a Boy Scout course. The Course Director does take on being Scoutmaster. He /She is assisted by a ASM for program and a ASM for Support /Physical Arrangements along with the ASM for Troop Guides and the other staff members -Not a mention of a Staff Patrol.

When adults take Scouts away to camp the adults are not following the same program or schedule as the Scouts. Any thing that could or might look like the adults are in some way in competition with the Youth members is to my mind wrong.

Somehow a young Scout who has tried his best and is proud of the burnt offering that he has cooked, being shown up by the "Adult Patrol" who of course should know what they are doing and more than lightly will end up with better results, just doesn't seem right.

Back when I was a SM, I selected the best person to do the job that was needed and never gave any thought to any sort of duty roster. Fred liked to do the cooking, he was good at it and this left the rest of the team free to do what was needed with the Scouts. Pete was the QM, He'd worked as a store-man in the RAF, he enjoyed being QM, so that was his job which he did for years. I enjoyed messing with rope and working with the PLC, helping them do what they had planned to do. To this end I assigned tasks for the ASM's.

Very often when things were going right!! My role in a Troop meeting would be a few wise words at the end (Of course I was doing other things like meeting with Scouts.)

We also had ASM's who only came to meetings or camp outs when their expertize was needed or when they were free.

At summer camp I was always happy to stay in camp and as long as at least one other adult stayed in camp. If the other adults wanted to have a night out after the days program was done, I was fine with that.

As for Adult Patrol Patches, as there is no adult patrols I don't think we need them and while when you first hear the name of the patrol it's kinda cute. It gets old really fast.

 

Having said all this!!

If it works for some units? I don't think it does any real harm!!

Eamonn

[FScouter]

In the other thread BrentAllen spoke of adult patrols: "We do this in WB and in SM training, so why not in a unit?"

 

I took the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals course a long time ago. We formed "patrols", did exercises, games, camp set-up and cooking as a "patrol". The purpose (as I understood it) was to demonstrate to us adults how the patrol method works for boys in the troop. There was no expectation that we all go back and assemble the troop adults into a "patrol".

 

There is no discussion in adult leader trainings about how to work an adult patrol. No publications offer guidance on running an adult patrol. If it was part of the BSA program at all there would be a chapter or two somewhere that talks about it.

 

The issue I have with these "patrols" is that the adults seem rather more inclined to play "boy scout" than to serve the troop as an adult leader.

[BrentAllen]

Eamonn, my good friend, much of what you say you don't want to happen, already is! The poor Scout with the burnt offering is going to smell the food from the adult patrol - are they supposed to burn their food too, to make the Scout feel better? Seems I've read in other threads recently that adults cook much better meals, hoping to inspire the boys to do better than pop-tarts and bacon!

 

When I said we do this in WB and SM Training, I meant as participants. We are critters for the rest of our lives, right? The staff models how a Troop should operate. In troops with adult patrols, the adults model how a patrol should operate. Same type of learning by observation.

 

If an adult doesn't end up fitting in as an ASM, he is offered a position on the committee. If you have an adult that just doesn't get it, and doesn't work well with the boys, are you going to let him be an ASM? Why? The Troop Committee is in charge of selecting quality leaders for the troop, and the SM should work closely with them in selecting ASMs.

 

ASMs are full time positions (in our unit, anyway) - it is Assistant, not part-time. Meaning, we expect them to show up at meetings and campouts unless they have a work or family conflict. I have been in a troop where they have lots of ASMs on paper (over 25), but only 2 or 3 show for meetings or campouts, and you never knew which 2 or 3 it would be. They even had to cancel a campout in June due to a lack of adult leadership. This is in a Troop with 65 boys registered, and 71 adults. Sorry, but I'm not going through that. I learned in WB to build a team (patrol) of adults working towards the same goal. If you have a truly effective team of adults working together, why should they not be a patrol? We do also have dads who go camping with us occasionally, but they are not ASMs.

 

The adults do not usually compete against the Scout patrols, but sometimes they do, in good fun. Of course, their score doesn't count. If you have the patrols launching water bottle rockets, do you really think it would be bad for the adults to build one of their own? Will the boys not have fun competing against the adults, win or lose? What about the pride the boys will feel if their rocket performs better than the adults?

 

Adult patrols do not run on the same schedule as the Scout patrols - what is the problem with that? Do some troops have older boy patrols that may have a different schedule on a campout than the younger Scouts? Absolutely! Maybe they are going on a longer, more difficult hike than the others.

 

I've referenced Troop 204 before. Their SM was the CD for the Summer Course. One of their many ASMs was the CD for the Fall Course (these guys are pretty good Scouters). Nearly every leader in the Troop is WB trained. They use an adult patrol, called the Bear Patrol. They elect a PL to serve for a year (which is not the SM - he has other things to do). They make duty rosters and rotate the jobs, just like the boys (so they learn the cooking skills, just like the boys). They have their own Patrol flag as well. Adult leaders are just like the boys in many ways, especially when it comes to voting with their feet. You tell me - who is going to show up more consistently at meetings - an adult who is having a lot of fun with the other leaders, feeling that he is part of a close-knit group, or a leader who is there by himself, trying to find something to do and some way to fit in? You might want to take a look at the Bear Patrol of Troop 204. http://204bsa.com/Bears/bears.htm

Do they have fun? You betcha! Yes, sometimes even more fun than the boys. Are you going to tell me that should never be the case?

 

F - could you explain what you mean about the adults playing Boy Scout instead of being a leader? Maybe some specific examples. Just curious.

[Its Me]

 

 

We do not have an adult patrol but the concept is intriguing. The adults should eat, camp and to some extent socialize away from the boys. I can see the biggest value for an adult patrol is meal time at a campout. Right now my young patrol is struggling to feed and cook for itself. Add four hungry men to the table and the burden on the new patrol is high. Add a guest adult and its scary.

 

Now I don't think anyone is saying that the adult patrol is taken too seriously. In that they don't line up and compete in the bucket brigade race at the troop meeting. I can see that the adult patrol is there to only to sop up the adults and get them away from hovering over the youths.

 

With an adult patrol what do you do with the SPL and ASPL? Are they part of the adult patrol? Or does the adult patrol just feed these guys as guests?

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

My unit is fortunate to have a group of competent, experienced ASMs. Some trained at US Armed Forces, AMC, NOLS, Outward Bound, BSA... but more importantly, they have allot of "field" experience. Also, being a diverse group, our scouts learn different camping styles taught by different adults. We have never cancelled an outing for lack of adults.

 

When an activity is planned, it is designated a scout outing or family outing. For example, the first campout for new scouts and an overnighter on the USS New Jersey would be family outings. On family outings, adults form cooking groups or not.

 

So for a scout outing, when the permission slips are returned, we look at the headcount and the activity plan (from PLC) a set the number of ASM's needed. So for the usual campout with 20 scouts, that number would usually be 3 or 4. Additional adults are discouraged, too much of a distraction. We want just the minimum, necessary adult oversight; scouts need to feel that they are in charge.

 

Before campout, ASM's approve patrol food menus. So no poptarts or Captain Crunch. Each meal has more than one entree. SPL checks menu, but ASM's sanity check for food allergies and other diet restrictions at that time. Before heading-out, we verify that patrols kept to plan and safely packaged food for campout.

 

On these outings, our #1 job as always is safety. Scout-run, but ASM's are the last line of defense that things were done safely. Scout parents have entrusted us with their sons. We cannot be distracted by helicopter parents, a dad who decided to bring a compound bow, a mom with 4 dozen cupcakes, adults who want to "vacation",...

 

We ASM's check that scouts are properly dressed and check for exposure. We watch that fire, stoves and axes are safely handled, prevent rough-housing, counsel scouts feeling homesick, make sure meds are taken. And more... We intervene to correct problems as needed, usually by just talking with SPL or,if urgent, directly. We are also there to further instruct and sign off requirements.

 

We are not cooking meals, we are listening as Tenderfoot Charlie Brown explains how he is cooking his patrol dinner where we are gueste. Maybe some entrees are overcooked, but this is scouting. If the PL and SPL forget, we make sure to remind them that scouts wash their hands, say grace, that everyone eats, and oversee cleanup.

 

Falling asleep when I return home is not a problem.

 

Our ASM's are not a "patrol", we are ASM's. We carry different gear than patrols. We carry the emergency gear - radios, cellphone, extensive first aid kit with med forms and scout meds, extra water,socks, gloves. We carry a personal stove and survival gear but not another patrol cook kit.

 

On a campout,I will make my own coffee. Experience has taught me that wisdom.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

Beautiful Day All

 

>>We ASM's check that scouts are properly dressed and check for exposure. We watch that fire, stoves and axes are safely handled, prevent rough-housing, counsel scouts feeling homesick, make sure meds are taken. And more... We intervene to correct problems as needed, usually by just talking with SPL or,if urgent, directly. We are also there to further instruct and sign off requirements.

[scoutingagain]

We don't have a formal Adult Patrol, but the adults plan meals together, camp together, so essentially we are a defacto patrol, but we don't call it that.

 

I did attend one large camporee where units were asked to volunteer to put on a skit, lead a song or otherwise participate in the evening's campfire. In all cases the activities were lead by an SPL or PL supported by other youth members. One unit sent up their "Adult Patrol", shoulder patches and all and proceeded to perform a skit. We, the other adults and I in our unit, looked at each other and kind of grimaced a bit. When they were done we gave them a polite round of applause, but frankly they looked silly.

 

SA

[RememberSchiff]

"Could a patrol forget to showup with food on your campouts?"

 

So far no patrol has forgotten their food or water, now tent poles, stove fuel, grills, and lanterns are often forgotten - time to improvise. We ask our SPL have patrols completed their checklists (this task is on his checklist). If yes, off we go. After the campout, we debrief and often ask "Was that on your checklist?" "Did you use checklists"...fun

 

Helicopter ASM's? Hmmm, when there is a safety issue I guess you can say we are hovering above.

 

I don't mean to infer that our approach is perfect, but a small group 2-4 adults (at most one adult newby) on scout outings works better for our unit. Even experienced adults learn new things on outings, so the notion of "training adults" seems odd to me. Our focus is on the scouts, but we all learn from each other.

 

 

[Eamonn]

"A Scout is kind"

 

A fellow forum member has requested that I close this thread.

In the PM that he sent me he says, in part:

".... This is very serious stuff, my friend. It hurts a lot to re-visit it."

 

I really can't see any reason why we would want to hurt anyone.

In fact that's the last thing we want to do!!

So at the risk of being "Heavy Handed" I'm going to close it.

Thanks for your understanding.

Eamonn.