is scouting different now, with declining membership, than it was 10 years ago, when membership was increasing?

[brianbuf]

Some of the previous threads have been all over multiple topics. To help have specific discussions, I wanted to ask all the veterans and other experts to basically explain this idea.

 

It has been posted that BSA's last year of membership increase was around 1998 and has constantly been declining since. Whether it as 1998 or another year, that is not the question and is not the point.

 

The point or question is this... what are we doing different or wrong NOW compared to what were the BSA leaders were doing 10 years ago (during the years of increase)?

 

I had suggested that society and boys interests are drifting further away from an unchanged BSA and the BSA needs to look at the icons, uniform, and merit badge programs. I got beat up pretty bad by some who said that it is the training of leaders or other things.

 

We have more trained leaders than ever before. So what is different about BSA now during the decline, than the BSA during the increase in membership years? I was not involved in leadership during the pre decrease years.

 

Any explanations out there?

[Lisabob]

Aw Brian, We've been over this ground 15 times. Give it a rest, would you please?

 

In the meantime, I'm curious to know why the only topics you ever engage on in this board have to do with declining numbers. If you serve a pack, troop, crew, or team in some capacity, don't you ever have anything to say about that experience?

 

I'm also curious to note (from your other thread on WB beads) that you don't want fellow Scouters in your home council to know about your website. Gosh, if you're that embarrassed by either the form or substance of what you have to say on your website then perhaps you ought to reconsider how you are saying it. And I do think that ties into the above question - are you truly this one-dimensional in your scouting experiences?

 

Sorry but I just don't see the substance here and I have really tried.

 

 

 

 

[MarkS]

I think the greatest contributor to the decline in membership in scouting is an increase in competition from other youth programs. The focus of the competition is not for based on the cost but the time required to effectively implement participation. The time required is not the boys time, but the parents' instead. Think about the effort required from parents to put together a quality soccer, baseball, or football team compared to the effort required for a quality scout program at the unit level. A quality scout program requires a more robust and diverse set of experiences and opportunities for the participants. This makes it a greater challenge for parents to plan and execute effectively even though we have roughly half the boys to do most of it for themselves.

 

Think about it this way... We spend a lot of time in the forums here talking about how the available training can help adult leaders put together the best program possible. We have youth protection training, basic training, Pow Wows, University of Scouting, Wood Badge, specialized skills training like pressurized fuels, first aid, rock climbing and rappelling, life guard, et al. How much training has your son's soccer coach needed to put together the best team possible? All I had to do was attend a one hour seminar to get my coaching license. I think the contrast is startling. From my point of view, it takes less effort to make something like soccer fun than it does to make scouting fun. Or maybe I was a better soccer coach than scout leader and didn't know it.

 

I think pointing to uniforms and nechkerchiefs as the primary source of the problem as extremely narrowly focused. Sure they can be updated and that's happening with the new Switchback pants and activity shirts. The nechkerchief is optional. The boys can vote not to have a unit neckerchief so I don't see why that would be an issue. I think the effort expended continuing to look here for the problem misses the big picture and is counterproductive towards your stated goals.

 

On the other hand, I think there are quite a number of opportunities to provide new areas of study for Merit Badges. However, I believe their contribution to the decline is negligible.

 

So why do we go to the extra effort for scouting compared to the other programs? It's the rewards baby! We want boys to be a Gerald Ford or Neil Armstrong or Sanford Bishop, not a Maurice Clarett.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[evmori]

I'm with ya on this one Lisabob. All the way. This thread is a waste.

 

Moderators, please lock this thread. It serves no purpose.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Crew21_Adv]

Brian,

 

Greetings again!

 

I feel that the BSA program is still the best program available to youth today.

 

My credentials.. I have been in Scouting for over 25 years now. In addition to being a parent, I have been a Sunday School teacher, a PTSO board member, a AYSO and NYSO Soccer coach, a Little League Baseball Coach, a Summer Camp Program Director and Camp Commissioner.

 

Sure, there are other programs out there, the 4H, the Future Farmers of America, the National Honor Society, Little League, the Girls and Boys Club of America, Junior Achievement, YMCA Adventure Guides, the list goes on... They all have their own benefits to the youth.

 

But I feel the BSA wraps all the benefits a youth would receive from these various programs, all up into one excellent BSA program.

 

The BSA continues to study new challenges, safe programs, while adding fun and excitement. I do not think the BSA is doing anything wrong, as you asked.

 

Honestly, as I attend fall and spring camporees, I see many youth learning and laughing and enjoying the time with their friends; while advancing thru their Scouting ranks. I believe the program and appeal is there for the boys.

 

Brian, Rather than asking "is scouting different now, with declining membership, than it was 10 years ago, when membership was increasing?" or "what are we doing different or wrong NOW compared to what were the BSA leaders were doing 10 years ago (during the years of increase)?"

 

You probably should have asked, what can we be doing to increase membership?

 

On both sides of the fence, I have seen boys and parents seek out and approach our troop to join. But also in recent years, I have witnessed young boys begging to join Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts with their friends; for their parents to say, "No!".

 

I do not understand the parent that will drop 600 dollars for a two month season of baseball, and say 10 dollars for Scouting is too expensive. The parents that will drive 200 miles for their son to sit on the bench throughout a game, but won't drive their son 2 miles to a Scout meeting. No kidding, I am honestly confused why parents will do this...

 

I love youth sports and encourage it as well as Scouting. But honestly, maybe a quarter of all these young athletes will play in High School.

 

Honestly Brian. I do believe that Scouting is appealing to most all the youth. But, it seems to be less appealing to their parents.

 

 

Others may disagree with my thoughts. I believe Scouting should equally conduct more media campaigns aimed towards the parents (as well as their youth). It is the parent that will sign up as a partner, it is a parent that will give up their "TV night", it is the parent that will drive a Scout to meeting, and usually a parent that will drive a Scout to camp.

 

From my perspective, The parents with Scouts in the BSA program love it! The parents without a Scout in the BSA program, just do not know what they are missing out on.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[SR540Beaver]

Brian,

 

Please don't take this as an attack. I say it with all due respect. There is a discussion that me and several of my Scouter buddies have from time to time about the difference between Scouters who "get it" and those who don't "get it". From what I've seen of your posts here, you fall into the "don't get it" camp. While you claim you want to make scouting better, you focus on the negative instead of the positive. Scouting is local. Scouting occurs at the unit level. What can you do to make make your unit the best unit in the council? Not to brag, but we picked up 24 new scouts this year and have a roster of about 65. We've had about the same number of Webelos indicate their desire to join us in the spring. We have had some discussions about having to consider limiting how many we can bring in due to the limitiations of our meeting area. Yes, we see other units around us struggling to survive while we thrive. Why is that Brian? Why is one unit successful and the other not. I can tell you that we are a very traditional unit that even uses that dreaded neckerchief and patch laden shirt, pants, socks and belt. Heck, we even have our own troop hat and hoodie.

 

Our secret? We follow the program, have trained and committed adults, are boy led and provide a great program. We have boys flocking to us. Our experience can be repeated in every unit in town or the nation. Sorry, I just see the glass half full.

 

Go back to your local unit and throw yourself into the program, "get it" and forget about changing things nationally. The program works for the vast majority of people and could for you if you quit being negative.

[local1400]

MarkS, I dont know about your specific area, but according to the BSA website there are over a half million adult leaders for under 1 million scouts in the USA! I dont think leadership is an issue. And parents can just drop off their kids to scouts-they dont have to stay and cheer them on. I think the scandals and allegations have kept alot of parents from getting their kids signed up. I have noticed the same decline in memberships (and more than a few closings and mergers too) of Catholic churches and schools in the New England area where the same type of scandals are rampant. It is sad that a VERY few bad apples chose our beloved organization to get their personal enjoyment of abusing kids. I have also heard some schools will not allow recruiting. So where do new members come from? BrianBuf--Do you hate the uniform so much that you want to change it? What would your uniform look like?(This message has been edited by local1400)

[Eagledad]

>>Honestly Brian. I do believe that Scouting is appealing to most all the youth. But, it seems to be less appealing to their parents.

[brianbuf]

Again, some very good comments, and some not so good.

 

Lisabob... your post had nothing to do with my question. But if you must know, it is not what you speculate! I am friends with many in leadership here, and I am well known in the community. I don't want to offend or hurt the feelings of those I know and live around. But that is for another thread. Please stop mixing threads.

 

Now, I would like to explore this comment:

Our secret? We follow the program, have trained and committed adults, are boy led and provide a great program. We have boys flocking to us. Our experience can be repeated in every unit in town or the nation. Sorry, I just see the glass half full.

 

Go back to your local unit and throw yourself into the program, "get it" and forget about changing things nationally. The program works for the vast majority of people and could for you if you quit being negative"

 

Are you saying that the leaders pre 1998 were following the program, and the leaders post 1998 are not following the program?

 

I see the glass half full also, but the glass is getting smaller each year.

[SR540Beaver]

"I see the glass half full also, but the glass is getting smaller each year."

 

But anyone who wants a drink can get one can't they?

 

Brian, you are not going to find a one size fits all solution to the numbers game. The high school I graduated from 31 years ago has class sizes about half or less of what they used to be. Heck, the ethnicity of the kids there is totally different than it used to be too. I've attended the same church for 30 years. I started attending it as a baby when it was a single building with maybe 100 people. I saw it grow with a number of buidling additions and a membership near 1000. I've been gone almost 20 years and it now runs maybe 200 people in attendance. All organizations go thru cycles based on a huge multitude of factors. It can be economical, leadership, competition, scandal, etc. Scouting isn't immune to these cycles and there is no single solution to increasing numbers. Increasing numbers for numbers sake isn't a good thing anyway. I've seen churches that concentrate on numbers and do nothing to mature the large numbers of people they bring in. As I said, there is no one size fits all solution. BSA gives you a skeleton for you to hang some meat on. Scouting is local. Make your unit the best show in town and improve your corner of the world. If everyone does that, the numbers go up while the traditional program remains the same. Got it?

[MarkS]

local1400 and Crew21_Adv,

 

From my perspective it has been very hard to get adults interested in participating in the program to the number needed to "spread the fun around." Essentailly, what I've found talking to some who have dropped out, they'd rather spend the $600 on a short term commitment, than be vested in something for the long haul.

 

brianbuf,

 

As you can see from the varying pespectives and experiences exhibited for you by myself, local1400, and Crew21_Adv, albiet limited within the confines of this thread, you have an example of what SR540Beaver is talking about.

 

Perhaps some of the national issues keep some parents from signing up their boys, but retention is pretty much all local, all unit, quality of program.

[BrentAllen]

What happened around 1998? That was when the 3 G's started appearing - attacks on the BSA about God, gays and girls. The 2000 case about gays was, and still is, a big issue. The BSA lost membership after that decision from some families on the left. They saw the BSA as bigoted and prejudiced, and didn't want to be part of the organization any more. I think they were wrong about the BSA, but I can't convince them of it.

 

The membership inflation scandal here in Atlanta caused a decline in membership in the black community. They were told they were being used by the Council to bring in money from private companies and the United Way. I don't think that was the case at all. The bad publicity definitely cost some real membership numbers, and our roles dropped as they were cleaned of any remaining ghost units.

 

There are so many other activities for boys today - swim teams, soccer, chess clubs, martial arts, band, music lessons, more summer camps (YMCA, Space Camp, etc...), more traveling teams in sports - playing year-round. Don't tell me the boys have more free time today, either. My 5th grade son has more homework now than I had in high school! In my youth, we played baseball and that was about it during the summer. We had lots of down time for just backyard play. I don't see that anymore.

 

Add to the mix more single parents, more kids born out of wedlock, more divorces. When these single parent families are just trying to make ends meet and get to school on time, Scouts isn't even a possibility.

 

So there are a number of reasons for a decline in Scout membership. The uniform and neckerchief don't amount to even a tiny fraction of the reasons. But or course, I've said that many times before in these threads. I'm sure it won't register this time either, so why do I bother???

[epalmer84]

As it has been noted before, in 1998 career-oriented Exploring was moved to Learning for Life, thus it no longer counts as BSA membership.

 

Then we add in the membership fraud issues in some councils and the resulting corrections. Add in the new member audit program and you get more corrections as duplicate and inactive memberships are cleaned up.

 

I have no clue how much of a difference these two issues have made in total numbers.

 

But the most important numbers are the numbers of youth in my troop and crew and our associated pack. These are the numbers that I can influence as a unit leader. The number 84 is very important, because that is the number on my sleeve.

 

Ed

[brianbuf]

Ed, great point, most of the focus needs to be local.

 

But it makes you wonder what really has happened since 1998. I can understand the 3 g theory for some, but a bounce back should happen, right?

 

How about this from above "There are so many other activities for boys today - swim teams, soccer, chess clubs, martial arts, band, music lessons, more summer camps (YMCA, Space Camp, etc...), more traveling teams in sports - playing year-round. Don't tell me the boys have more free time today, either. My 5th grade son has more homework now than I had in high school! In my youth, we played baseball and that was about it during the summer. We had lots of down time for just backyard play. I don't see that anymore."

 

Is this new since 1998? Are kids that much more busy post 1998 than pre 1998 that it would influence numbers, some as much as 10.9% drop in a single year?

 

Is this a valid contributor to a point that kids activities have increased magically post 1998 vs pre 1998 to have that huge of an new, extra affect it did not have before?

 

Brian

 

[BrentAllen]

brian writes "Is this new since 1998? Are kids that much more busy post 1998 than pre 1998 that it would influence numbers, some as much as 10.9% drop in a single year?

 

Is this a valid contributor to a point that kids activities have increased magically post 1998 vs pre 1998 to have that huge of an new, extra affect it did not have before?"

 

I think it is a much more realistic reason for the continued drop than maintaining a "dorky" uniform. Wait, I forgot - the 10.9% drop was in Venturing, where they don't have a "dorky" uniform.

 

Bounce back from the gay issue? Not likely, unless BSA were to change their position, which I and others think would cost them much more than would be gained.

 

IMHO, the two biggest single events to cause a noticeable drop in membership were:

1. The 2000 decision allowing the BSA to exclude gays.

2. The 2004/2005 fraudulent membership fiasco and the roll cleaning that followed.

 

I think the Tiger program has caused a drop in Boy Scouts - some boys or parents are burned out by time the hit 5th/6th grade, and see ending elementary school as a good place to hop off the Scout train. I personally think 1st Grade is too early to start, and if I could change anything, it would be to do away with Tigers.