Medical Forms

[evmori]

If we as adult leaders don't know if the Scouts in our care have medical problems which require special medication or special food or anything out of the ordinary we are doing those Scouts a great disservice and possibly putting them in grave danger. It is part of our job to know these things. Read the G2SS. It is not our job to tell everyone in the world that Tommy Tenderfoot is ADHD. That's where th privacy comes in.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Did I not say that the forms are to be used in case of a medical emergency? At no time did I suggest that the medical forms did not pertain to medical emergencies. As fo emergency phone numbers I would expect that to be on the permission slip for the individual event.

 

Volunteers are responsible for following the safety rules of an activity. Parents are responsible for a childs non-emergency medical treatment according to the G2SS and the BSA.

 

If the parent chose to give Mark a weekend away from his meds and not tell you that to me would be rather irresponible of the parent but not illegal and not mandatory that you be told. If Mark's behavior began to escalate I would hope you would contact the parents with the number they gave you on the permission slip. If his behavior became a safety issue I would expect you to follow the guidelines of the BSA and sent him home with his parents. If his behavior became an emergency medical situation I would expect you to seek professional medical help for Mark and give his confidential health history to professional medical provider.

 

Always be cautious of "I heard about something from someone who said that...."It is often urban legend. No medical provider is required to give confidential information on a minor to a non-parent/guardian.

 

No matter how strong you "feel" you have the right to know everthing about a person, you don't. Nothing in law gives you that right and certainly nothing in scouting.

 

You can get everything you need to know for non-emergency situations simple by asking the parents a few simple questions. Give families the respect they are due by keeping their personal information confidential until a situation arises when it needs to be shared.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Twocubdad]

You guys are missing a key point in that the G2SS make a distinction between Class 1 medical forms and Class 2 & 3.

 

Bold face BSA policy requires us to be familiar with the information contained on the Class 1 form. That info is generally limited to the kind of information you would need to know to supervise a kid -- allergies, medications, conditions which would prevent participation in certain activities, etc. There is no such requirement for the Class 2 & 3 info. The Class 2 & 3 information includes the results of a physician's exam. Not only is it of a more private nature, but it is also of less value to a non-professional. It seems reasonable to me that the Class 1 data be made available on a fairly liberal need-to-know basis, but that the Class 2 & 3 information be available only in an emergency situation. I don't know how this jives with the new HIPPA regs, but it seems an appropriate consent on the Class 1 form could cover the legal requirements.

 

BSA could make this easier if they put all the Class 1 info on the front of one page, then make the additional stuff for a Class 2 form a seperate sheet, the two could then be separated, with the first page readily available and the second in a sealed envelope.

 

Not only does this make common sense, but it is also in keeping with the G2SS policy.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[evmori]

And in a perfect world we would all get along. I don't want to take the chance of a Scout being in danger because I didn't know he needed some special medication ,food, etc.. I'm not interested in "knowing" what's wrong with the kid only that he has what he needs to be safe. Remember, we are dealing with kids & kids forget. I don't want to be responsible if Tommy Tenderfoot didn't take his meds & ends up in a coma. That would look real good in court!

 

"Mr. Mori, didn't you know Tommy Tenderfoot was on special medication?"

 

"No I didn't."

 

"Wasn't this written on his medical form?"

 

"I don't know."

 

"What do you mean you don't know."

 

"I never read it. I only looked it over to ensure it looked complete."

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1Peter 4:10

[Fat Old Guy]

"Nowhere have I said that the leader should be kept in the dark."

 

Backpedalin' Bob.

 

"You guys are missing a key point in that the G2SS make a distinction between Class 1 medical forms and Class 2 & 3."

 

I think that's an editorial thing. The class two has information on it that is understandable important to the reasonably intelligent layman such as "activity restrictions" and "diet restrictions."

[Bob White]

"I don't want to be responsible if Tommy Tenderfoot didn't take his meds & ends up in a coma."

 

Good for you. You shouldn't be and in fact the BSA agrees and says the same thing, that the responsibility for medications is the responsibility of the scout, and if the scout is not capable then it is the parent/guardian responsibility. The BSA is very specific in the G2ss taht it neither requires or recommends the leader to take this responsibility. In addition, no law requires you or holds you responsible for such responsibility.

 

"I don't know how this jives with the new HIPPA regs" Again, HIPPA has no application to the BSA.

 

In nearly 30 years of troop leadership I have had 3 instances when a scout required professional medical care. None these instances would have been avoided by knowing the contents of the Health History or physicals. All required us to have the medical forms available for the medical professional. None of those doctors would do anthing to the youth until they had spoken to a parent and confirmed all the needed information, including what was on the form.

 

I have no personal experience of a scout ever having a health emergency on an activity that we were not prepared for from information voluntered by the parent, and which never required anyone viewing the health forms on hand.

 

I have only once distibuted meds to a child other than my own (he required pain relievers on a regular basis during a prolonged trip home) and never had a scout ill from overdosing or undermedicating. If I had I would seek ou tprofessional medical services to help him.

 

I do not live in a utopia or bubble. The scouts I have served have had all sorts of medical conditions, All of which the scout was aware of and the parents made me aware of if needed. No parent ever withheld the information from me needed to keep their scout healthy.

 

I do not understand the fascination with feeling you need to know every personal thing about the scout. You need to know how to do your job and what little Mark's personal information is has little or nothing to do with that.

 

 

I am sorry this seems to ru so many the wrong way. But if you follow the safety guidelines of scouting and actually communicate with parents then the only person that needs those medical forms are medical professionals and even then only on rare occasions.

 

If you have need for constantly accessing these forms then maybe this discussion is not your biggest problem.

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

"Good for you. You shouldn't be and in fact the BSA agrees and says the same thing, that the responsibility for medications is the responsibility of the scout, and if the scout is not capable then it is the parent/guardian responsibility. The BSA is very specific in the G2ss taht it neither requires or recommends the leader to take this responsibility. In addition, no law requires you or holds you responsible for such responsibility."

 

I can't seem to find the pages in the G2SS where it states the BSA is specific on the adult leaders taking responsibility for this. Bob, Please help me out here.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Bob White]

I am surprised you can't find it Ed, we have had this conversation before I beleive and I gave you the reference that time as well. But I'm happy to help.

 

Reread the G2SS section on prescription medications.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Thanks Bob. But there is nothing about the Scout not being capable. It also states a Scout leader can take on this responsibility. It also states the BSA doesn't require this nor do they necessarily encourage this. Plus, if local law requires it, it must happen. But nothing about the Scout's ability to take his own medication. Nor does it state the adult leadership should NOT be aware of this. And it states after obtaining all the necessary information, a Scout leader can take on this responsibility. But, what necessary information is isn't defined.

 

So, if I as a leader don't know Tommy Tenderfoot is on medicinication & Tommy Tenderfoot doesn't take his medication & Tommy Tenderfoot keels over because he didn't take his medication we as leaders aren't responsible? In a court of law, that wouldn't hold water. Especially if it is on the medical form I as a leader have in my possession.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Fat Old Guy]

" In addition, no law requires you or holds you responsible for such responsibility. "

 

That's small comfort when the kid dies and the legal sharks start circling.

[Twocubdad]

You guys are more interested in a good fight than making sense of the policy. Read the dang policy and look at the freaking forms! It's all there in black and white.

 

First paragraph of page 48 plainly says the purpose of the forms is to, "provide youth members and adult leaders a better understanding of their physical capabilities." And as KS posted earlier, "Den leaders, Scoutmasters, team coaches, and crew Advisors should review these and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of the youth members in their unit. Forms must be updated annually. They are filled out by participants and kept on file for easy reference." Bob, I don't see how you reconcile your position with that.

 

You also said that all this could be covered by asking the parents a few simple questions. How about these questions:

How do we get hold of you if there is an emergency?

Who do we call if we can't find you?

Is your son on any medications we need to know about?

Will he need to take them while with us?

Does he require any special medical equipment?

Does he have any medical conditions which would prevent him from participating in a particular activity?

Are all his vaccines up to date?

 

Any of this ring a bell? It should. It's the sum total of the Class 1 form. What's the difference between asking the questions verbally and giving a parent the form -- other than the fact that the form is uniform, doesn't leave out important questions, gives the parents a chance to think about their answers, doesn't rely on the leader's memory and creates a paper trail if one is ever needed?

 

And FOG, what the heck is an "editorial thing"? If the policy wanted leaders to review the content of the Class 2 & 3 physican exam results, it would have repeated that clause for each level, or placed it in the general information of the introductory paragraph. Seems pretty clear to me.

 

One more thing. Bob you've said twice that HIPPA doesn't apply to BSA. I know we've had a separate thread on that subject, but can you provide a brief source for that conclusion?

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"And FOG, what the heck is an "editorial thing"? "

 

An editorial thing is simply an oversight on the part of the editors.

 

Read HIPPA, it only applies to insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and the like. BSA and YMCA don't fall into that group.

 

As for Bob and his wealth of experience, the vast majority of cops never draw their gun in the line of duty but they still carry one "just in case." Most fighter pilots never use their ejection seat but they still have one. I'll bet that you have never needed your seat belt but you still wear it.

 

There's a lot of things in life that we don't need very often but are very important.

[Twocubdad]

Thanks for the suggestion, FOG, but I'm planning to sandpaper my body and roll in salt this afternoon, so I won't have time for quite that much reading.

 

(Yes, for the non in-duh-viduals in the audience, I stole that line from Dilbert.)

[Bob White]

Ed I never said the leader could not assume the responsibility but that the BSA neither requires or recommends to do that. If you do then you become soley responsible for any medical prob lems resulting from the improper storage, or deliver of the medication. You said you didn't want to be responsible and now you say you want total liability. Which is it.

 

Ed it says that the scout or his parent/guardian are responsile. In a scouting situation when would a parent be present to take responsibility? when they felt the scout could not.

 

It also states taht where local laws are more restrictive they must be followed. That is because in many staes some of the meds used by scouts are controlled and for you to be in possession of them is illegal.

 

For you to tell a scout when to take which meds is highly dangerous. Especially if you are the type of SM how has to be in charge of everything, it would be easy to become distracted and make an error that could cause Tommy Tenderfoot to keel over at your feet.

 

Fog, that's ridiculous. No one has suggested not rendering or seeking medical attention for a scout. To suggest that is toatally irresponsible on your part. All I have said is to respect the confidentiality of information until it is time to use it and then give it to appropriate medical professionals.

 

 

Let me ask a question. If you could deliver an adventurous scouting program that was lead so that you didn't need to delve into every scouts personal health information in order for the scouts to be safe and healthy wouldn't that be a good thing?

 

Well it is possible and its done everyday all over the country, why do you not want to have that type of program?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

What Bob White says that he siad, "All I have said is to respect the confidentiality of information until it is time to use it and then give it to appropriate medical professionals."

 

What Bob White really said, "That way the medical form can be stored in a sealed envelope unless needed to be accessed for emergency medical treatment by a trained and licensed medical professional.

 

Still doin' the fast back pedal.