The BSA with no rank advancement

[Basementdweller]

Watching the antics over at bryan on scouting.....

"Basement Bob," I presume? Quite the battle you're putting on. Definitely a lot of dumb going on in the comments for that blog.

 

After he decided to turn his scouting manual into a full-blown program for boys, Baden-Powell's program had no advancement, and it didn't float. When he incorporated Seton's Woodcraft Indians advancement concept, he had what he needed: motivation. Young men can camp, fish, set fires, play Frisbee, build a robot, toast marshmallows, and fool with rope anywhere. They get the ceremony, recognition, belonging/bonding, etc. in Scouts.

Oh my personal favorite service hour counting was the fellow and scout who greeted folks at the church and collected the offering and counted that as community service......Really are we that pathetic.

[King Ding Dong]

Watching the antics over at bryan on scouting.....

"Basement Bob," I presume? Quite the battle you're putting on. Definitely a lot of dumb going on in the comments for that blog.

 

After he decided to turn his scouting manual into a full-blown program for boys, Baden-Powell's program had no advancement, and it didn't float. When he incorporated Seton's Woodcraft Indians advancement concept, he had what he needed: motivation. Young men can camp, fish, set fires, play Frisbee, build a robot, toast marshmallows, and fool with rope anywhere. They get the ceremony, recognition, belonging/bonding, etc. in Scouts.

I agree that the offering thing is over the top, but what about serving as an alter boy? The way I read the policy it counts, but I am not sure it should. I do get your point that is not that much time and shouldn't even be a course for concern. Any scout should have way more than 13 service hours by life.

[King Ding Dong]

That is one aspects of our troop I really enjoy. There doesn't seem to be a race to eagle

 

I have never had a new scout show up with a 3 inch binder and his plan to get to eagle.

 

I watch my scouts on campouts.....The SPL holds camp gadget races....that was outstanding to watch the different ideas to fix the problem......I watch their fire building contest......I watch them correct for dinner mistakes.....the group truly are friends inside and outside of scouting.

 

I guess advancement is very organic in our troop. I asked a scout last night if he had time for his SMC for second class.....He asked if he could do it after the meeting......they were having fun and it couldn't be uninterrupted.....My point, he had no idea he completed second class.....

 

 

I read here and on other scouting blogs that the Troop has to organize an advancement weekend.....Why is that????

 

 

Interesting. I thought it was a scouts responsibility to ask for a SMC. Doing a little handholding BD, eh?

[fred johnson]

I could take or leave the advancement program. The skills taught are great and the adventure is great. The advancement ... ho hum.

 

FOR MY KIDS ... I have them in scouts to #1 push their comfort zones and develop skills, #2 build "healthy" friendships and #3 get a tan that is not from the basement TV. I view the MB program as something nice to expose topics and broaden horizons. BUT .... Since they are in scouts, I encourage them to also go for advancement and Eagle. If they get it, great. If not, no loss.

[Basementdweller]

That is one aspects of our troop I really enjoy. There doesn't seem to be a race to eagle

 

I have never had a new scout show up with a 3 inch binder and his plan to get to eagle.

 

I watch my scouts on campouts.....The SPL holds camp gadget races....that was outstanding to watch the different ideas to fix the problem......I watch their fire building contest......I watch them correct for dinner mistakes.....the group truly are friends inside and outside of scouting.

 

I guess advancement is very organic in our troop. I asked a scout last night if he had time for his SMC for second class.....He asked if he could do it after the meeting......they were having fun and it couldn't be uninterrupted.....My point, he had no idea he completed second class.....

 

 

I read here and on other scouting blogs that the Troop has to organize an advancement weekend.....Why is that????

 

 

Too me it is a courtesy thing......

 

When the boys advance naturally and aren't counting every meal, mile hiked or night camped.....they need to be reminded....

 

I won't have to ask your son......but ya know that is ok too.

[King Ding Dong]

That is one aspects of our troop I really enjoy. There doesn't seem to be a race to eagle

 

I have never had a new scout show up with a 3 inch binder and his plan to get to eagle.

 

I watch my scouts on campouts.....The SPL holds camp gadget races....that was outstanding to watch the different ideas to fix the problem......I watch their fire building contest......I watch them correct for dinner mistakes.....the group truly are friends inside and outside of scouting.

 

I guess advancement is very organic in our troop. I asked a scout last night if he had time for his SMC for second class.....He asked if he could do it after the meeting......they were having fun and it couldn't be uninterrupted.....My point, he had no idea he completed second class.....

 

 

I read here and on other scouting blogs that the Troop has to organize an advancement weekend.....Why is that????

 

 

No you won't. Helicopter Dad will be there to remind him. Seriously working with him to take charge of his book. That is something I see seriously wrong in cubs. The book is treated as a parent handbook and not the cub's book. The pack moved to Scouttrack, the downside it further takes the recording responsibility away from the cub.

 

What is your response to the goal setting and ambition that advancement fosters?

[Basementdweller]

That is one aspects of our troop I really enjoy. There doesn't seem to be a race to eagle

 

I have never had a new scout show up with a 3 inch binder and his plan to get to eagle.

 

I watch my scouts on campouts.....The SPL holds camp gadget races....that was outstanding to watch the different ideas to fix the problem......I watch their fire building contest......I watch them correct for dinner mistakes.....the group truly are friends inside and outside of scouting.

 

I guess advancement is very organic in our troop. I asked a scout last night if he had time for his SMC for second class.....He asked if he could do it after the meeting......they were having fun and it couldn't be uninterrupted.....My point, he had no idea he completed second class.....

 

 

I read here and on other scouting blogs that the Troop has to organize an advancement weekend.....Why is that????

 

 

Don't

 

The goal should be go on the next camping trip, hike or simple adventure.....Do what it takes to make the trip successful......Set up a tent, cook and clean up meals.....buy the food....take care of the gear....take your turn planning and leading the activity.

 

We rarely hold a class for anything.....We do toten chip and fire'n chit just makes more sense than one on one on the fly....

[Twocubdad]

Scouting with no advancement.... Hmmmm.... Isn't that what KDD's describing for the boys in his troop over age 14?

 

My whole reason for slowing the mad rush to Eagle by 14 is specifically to KEEP advancement out there as a carrot for the 15, 16 and 17 year olds. Earning Eagle is a big motivation for Scouts. Now whether they've internalize the intrinsic value of the program, think it will help them get into college or because their mama's wailing on them is another story.

 

Advancement is one leg of the three legged stool which keeps boys in the program. (Actually, the stool has a lot of legs, but work with me here on the analogy.) When you knock one leg off, either by fiat or by "completing" the program at a young age, we lose boys. Certainly there are other elements of the program which attract and keep Scouts, but advancement is certainly on of them.

 

BD -- I suspect that some point someone put a great deal of effort to develop a troop culture of organic advancement. Like an organic garden, it takes time and effort to get established and is mostly self-sustaining once it is. Also like an organic garden, you have to be vigilant. A very few boys and/or leaders can reignite that competitive race to the finish.

[Stosh]

Historically the top rank of BSA was First Class. For me FC means the boy has mastered enough of the basics to be able to go out and do outdoor activities with enough knowledge to get him back home on time. He can hike, camp, cook, do first aid, swim, etc. so that he's not a burden on his buddies. He may even have more than enough skills to actually help out his buddies if they need it.

 

With that being said, Star to Eagle is merely icing on the cake. MB's, projects and leadership development. Fine, but not a driving force to keep the wheels of scouting on the road. There's enough training for leadership development long before they get to FC anyway. Unfortunately the policy for most is to rush through those early requirements, demonstrating, but never mastering the skills necessary to be self-sufficient in the out-of-doors. So what do we end up with? Eagle Scouts that can't start a campfire or cook a meal for his patrol. He looks to the adults to bail him out when someone gets hurt. and the list goes on and on... and on. Early scouting tradition identified such boys as parlor scouts. Well, today we have a ton of them. It is really a good thing that adults are always present with these boys when they are out camping, because they are totally not prepared to do it on their own. Seriously, we are running a babysitting service because we have not taught our boys to actually, and practically, grow up to a modicum level of self-sufficiency.

 

If TF -> FC were a curriculum of material to be mastered before heading out on a trek rather than a pencil-whipped check in a book, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

[walk in the woods]

My first thought was the same as qwazse's that Boy Scouts without advancement is Venturing. At least in our neck of the woods. Maybe a restructure along the lines of jblake's note is appropriate? Make Boy Scouts a 6th - 8th grade program, emphasize T21 skills, and put star/life/Eagle into Venturing as one of many recognition paths? Eliminate the MBs and Eagle in Jr. High Scouting and the focus automatically goes back to skills and leadership? No MBs at summer camp but rather just hanging in the woods, shooting rifles, burning stuff, paddling canoes for no apparent reason? I'll go.

[Basementdweller]

Scouting with no advancement.... Hmmmm.... Isn't that what KDD's describing for the boys in his troop over age 14?

 

My whole reason for slowing the mad rush to Eagle by 14 is specifically to KEEP advancement out there as a carrot for the 15, 16 and 17 year olds. Earning Eagle is a big motivation for Scouts. Now whether they've internalize the intrinsic value of the program, think it will help them get into college or because their mama's wailing on them is another story.

 

Advancement is one leg of the three legged stool which keeps boys in the program. (Actually, the stool has a lot of legs, but work with me here on the analogy.) When you knock one leg off, either by fiat or by "completing" the program at a young age, we lose boys. Certainly there are other elements of the program which attract and keep Scouts, but advancement is certainly on of them.

 

BD -- I suspect that some point someone put a great deal of effort to develop a troop culture of organic advancement. Like an organic garden, it takes time and effort to get established and is mostly self-sustaining once it is. Also like an organic garden, you have to be vigilant. A very few boys and/or leaders can reignite that competitive race to the finish.

When previous SM and I joined the troop there were two boys left......the culture was meetings and cabin camping.

 

We recruited some new scouts and we were off......as a side note.....the last two boys of the original troop quit very promptly after we started ramping up the outdoor program.

 

The entire organic advancement was very accidental........Watched billy scout put up the patrol tarp....Let me look at those knots....hey that is pretty good.....you wouldn't happen to have your book with you would you.........Hiking Billy scout hollers back look out for that poison ivy right there.........Check out where the beaver chewed that tree.....look at that squirel nest.....man cool deer track....got your book..... so where are we on the map........how do you know....well here is the feild, the woods are right there and that bridge is just up a head...........first aid happens the same way, well for some of it......Lucky no broken bones and such.

 

I would like to take credit, but it just happened....

[blw2]

I see the same issues with the Cubs and advancement too. Drives me crazy to give these awards to boys that I can tell didn't do their best.... or I'm pretty sure in some cases that the parent signed them off late one evening after they were in bed, just because they did this or that once..... maybe last year or the year before.....

A personal regret I have is not continuing with Scouting as a boy.... I made it through cubs and quit after the first year or so in the troop......so to that end I'll push my son.... scratch that, GUIDE him....but only so far. I gave into the peer pressure that scouting wasn't cool, but I think if I'd had someone encouraging and guiding me, AND I'd not been so shy and made better friends in scouting, maybe I would have.....

I'd like to join you Basement, desert, and veni for that drink.......

[King Ding Dong]

Historically the top rank of BSA was First Class. For me FC means the boy has mastered enough of the basics to be able to go out and do outdoor activities with enough knowledge to get him back home on time. He can hike, camp, cook, do first aid, swim, etc. so that he's not a burden on his buddies. He may even have more than enough skills to actually help out his buddies if they need it.

 

With that being said, Star to Eagle is merely icing on the cake. MB's, projects and leadership development. Fine, but not a driving force to keep the wheels of scouting on the road. There's enough training for leadership development long before they get to FC anyway. Unfortunately the policy for most is to rush through those early requirements, demonstrating, but never mastering the skills necessary to be self-sufficient in the out-of-doors. So what do we end up with? Eagle Scouts that can't start a campfire or cook a meal for his patrol. He looks to the adults to bail him out when someone gets hurt. and the list goes on and on... and on. Early scouting tradition identified such boys as parlor scouts. Well, today we have a ton of them. It is really a good thing that adults are always present with these boys when they are out camping, because they are totally not prepared to do it on their own. Seriously, we are running a babysitting service because we have not taught our boys to actually, and practically, grow up to a modicum level of self-sufficiency.

 

If TF -> FC were a curriculum of material to be mastered before heading out on a trek rather than a pencil-whipped check in a book, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Let me run thins past all you. Lets take some common FA scenarios.

 

On the crossover campout a 1st class scout came up to the NSP and asked for a band aid. With no obvious signs of trauma. I asked him what rank he was and if he had a personal FA kit. "Yes, but it is in the bottom of my pack." My response, "where do you think these scouts have theirs?" That was that.

 

This past week end a star came up to us and said he burned his hand on some charcoal. His dad was there so he took care of it. My response would have been to start asking him some questions. How bad is it? What have you done so far? Stop and think about your training. What is the first thing you are supposed to do? (Cool it down, maybe?) Then what should you do? If it blisters should you pop it or leave it be? If the blister pops later what should you do? Instead Dad took him over to the trailer and sprayed it with Solarcaine.

 

Would that be the correct approach?

[Basementdweller]

Historically the top rank of BSA was First Class. For me FC means the boy has mastered enough of the basics to be able to go out and do outdoor activities with enough knowledge to get him back home on time. He can hike, camp, cook, do first aid, swim, etc. so that he's not a burden on his buddies. He may even have more than enough skills to actually help out his buddies if they need it.

 

With that being said, Star to Eagle is merely icing on the cake. MB's, projects and leadership development. Fine, but not a driving force to keep the wheels of scouting on the road. There's enough training for leadership development long before they get to FC anyway. Unfortunately the policy for most is to rush through those early requirements, demonstrating, but never mastering the skills necessary to be self-sufficient in the out-of-doors. So what do we end up with? Eagle Scouts that can't start a campfire or cook a meal for his patrol. He looks to the adults to bail him out when someone gets hurt. and the list goes on and on... and on. Early scouting tradition identified such boys as parlor scouts. Well, today we have a ton of them. It is really a good thing that adults are always present with these boys when they are out camping, because they are totally not prepared to do it on their own. Seriously, we are running a babysitting service because we have not taught our boys to actually, and practically, grow up to a modicum level of self-sufficiency.

 

If TF -> FC were a curriculum of material to be mastered before heading out on a trek rather than a pencil-whipped check in a book, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Tell them it looks like it hurts and they should probably do something about it.

[Basementdweller]

I see the same issues with the Cubs and advancement too. Drives me crazy to give these awards to boys that I can tell didn't do their best.... or I'm pretty sure in some cases that the parent signed them off late one evening after they were in bed, just because they did this or that once..... maybe last year or the year before.....

A personal regret I have is not continuing with Scouting as a boy.... I made it through cubs and quit after the first year or so in the troop......so to that end I'll push my son.... scratch that, GUIDE him....but only so far. I gave into the peer pressure that scouting wasn't cool, but I think if I'd had someone encouraging and guiding me, AND I'd not been so shy and made better friends in scouting, maybe I would have.....

I'd like to join you Basement, desert, and veni for that drink.......

had a parent sign and entire Bear book in 10 minutes while I waited years ago....he was going to get his patch