Advancement and Overbearing Parents

[Twocubdad]

"Completing" the program by 14??? Since when does reaching the level of general in the US Army it means it's time to quit? BSA has a serious problem with how it defines itself. It's the same for AOL in the cub program. I'm 62 years old and have been in the program since my Wolf year of cubbing back in the '50's. I haven't found the end of anything as of yet. Maybe it's time to let the BSA know that Scouting isn't the end of anything. And if anyone thinks that 14 years of age is "half way through is Scouting experience" they are simply feeding this misconception. I'm not picking on you Twocubdad, I definitely know that's not what you really were trying to say, but it was a message that could easily been interpreted as such.

I thought I commented, Stosh, don't know where it went....

 

No picking taken, but, yeah, that's exactly my point and one I've been making around here for years. Part of my job is to make sure the Scouts get the most out of the program. If we allow the expectation to develop that Scouting is to be "completed" as quickly as possible, they are not getting the most out of the program. We're not selling a product, we're selling an experience. Do you go on vacation and try to blow through all the activities so you can get back to work as soon as possible?

[Stosh]

"Completing" the program by 14??? Since when does reaching the level of general in the US Army it means it's time to quit? BSA has a serious problem with how it defines itself. It's the same for AOL in the cub program. I'm 62 years old and have been in the program since my Wolf year of cubbing back in the '50's. I haven't found the end of anything as of yet. Maybe it's time to let the BSA know that Scouting isn't the end of anything. And if anyone thinks that 14 years of age is "half way through is Scouting experience" they are simply feeding this misconception. I'm not picking on you Twocubdad, I definitely know that's not what you really were trying to say, but it was a message that could easily been interpreted as such.

I was just adding to the point you were making. There will be boys that progress quickly. I don't have a problem with that if they stick around and share their experience and wisdom with others in the troop. Like you, I am not a big fan of rushing through just to quit.

[Stosh]

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

Story time! If they are going to act like kindergarteners, then story time fits in nicely.

[Venividi]

Still here folks, we had a campout this weekend. One of the parents has a snack route and we used his trailer haul bikes to a park and the boys took 21 or 27 mile ride Saturday. I got a bit ill and stayed at camp but it worked out well because on the the bikes had a non standard valve and we couldn't pressurize it so he used mine.

 

I have read all the posts here at least a couple of times and really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. It has been a lot to think about. I certainly don't want my son to rush through anything and agree completely he need to focus primarily on having fun and mastering Scoutcraft skills. He was patrol grubmaster and due to a rained out event a few weeks ago and moderate attendance this weekend he was assigned to the older scout patrol. He did really well with the cooking with only a couple minor problems. When breaking camp the older boys tried to tell him rolling up his pad and bag were not about strength but skill and tried to show him how as he was holding up breakfast. He got really frustrated and upset because with the equipment he was using it IS about strength. It is hard for me. That can be fixed with a larger stuff sack and a simpler pad. Given the chance for rain and our leaky tents I sent him his moms 3 1/2" REI pad. Great pad, but hard to roll up.

 

I will just have to play it by ear with this troop. Seeing other scouts rush past him can certainly be discouraging, but if he develops true ambition I can't see slowing him down. It will be largely be upmto him if he wants to work on skills and exercise to get his strength up or play video games. (not that there are no limits on video in my house). At this point he excels when given manageable tasks and takes pride in doing a good job, like patrol grubmaster this weekend.

 

I am bothered a bit by the perception that Eagle is the destination and not just one milestone on the Journey. I think part of that is the result of the BSAs heavy emphasis on that brand. There are so many other goals achievements past Eagle that I feel to little emphasis is placed on. For instance the National Outdoor Badge and Nova awards. Our council is having a STEM camp week this summer where one badge or Nova Is worked on each day. A format that allows for more time and focus than traditional summer camp format. First class is required so that will have to wait until next summer. (If he gets there, but I am sure he will).

 

I am curious what T-1 skills are so hard to master in one year ? As long as it a 2 man tent and not some 8 person hotel the tent should be easy enough in a year. The orienteering skills certainly take practice, but is not rocket science. The knots maybe hard for him, but again 15 minutes with some rope a couple of times a week should get it done. If you don't have a fireplace a trash can lid in the driveway should suffice to get some tinder and a few pieces of kindling started. First aid, plants and animals is just memorization. I grill frequently and it is now his job to flip the chicken and burgers. Good time to slow him down and have a chat on the deck. (Why the heck is an instant read thermometer required on the packing list or internal temperature tables in the handbook ? Meat is done when it is done, not how long it has been over heat.)

 

It was mentioned that it is a rare scout that attends meetings, goes camping, participates in activities, and wants to lead if allowed. That is my son, so far he has perfect attendance, only one of the others in the NSP does.

 

Please keep up the conversation. These kinds of topics should always be active.

You state: It was mentioned that it is a rare scout that attends meetings, goes camping, participates in activities, and wants to lead if allowed. That is my son, so far he has perfect attendance, only one of the others in the NSP does.

 

Sort of right. It is a rare scout under 13 or 14 that wants lead, has had the experiences necessary to be able to lead, AND is willing to put in the effort needed to lead. Many new scouts want to be a leader, when they think it is an honorary position and means that they get to tell people what to do and they have to do it. They don't realize what a leader really does, nor the work that has to be done to be a leader, They joined scouts to do fun stuff, not to be responsible for the well being of a patrol full of scouts.

[King Ding Dong]

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

Ha jblake. That's good. When my my youngest was in 1st grade he insisted on checking out Pokemon books from the school library. I couldn't stand them, and they were beneath his skill level. So at bed time I would only read them in the most obnoxious, condescending, sarcastic voice I could muster. That ended that. You want a real story, bring me one.

 

Great advise again V. If you can't RTFM, then you don't get the position? Is there a way of enforcing this? Here is the manual, you have two weeks to read it and conference with me about its contents or a new election will be called.

[Basementdweller]

I did the same thing.....The PL and SPL have yet to read them....

[JoeBob]

I don't worry about the merit badges as much as I do the core skills in those first four ranks. Merit Badges are what they are.

 

So, I go over those core skills repeatedly. My Scouts will know all the knots, compass, map reading, outdoor skills, first-aid, safety, etc. when they are adults.

Me too.

 

We're holding patrol competitions every other meeting.

 

"Using four staves and six pieces of rope, suspend a cafeteria chair as high in the air as possible. You have ten minutes. Highest chair wins the Oreos."

How would you do it? Tying two staves together for length (round lashing), tying them to two chair legs for structure, and tying it all to a handrail to hold it upright won in our troop.

 

"Using four staves and six pieces of rope, suspend a cafeteria chair at least six inches in the air free-standing. Fastest time wins the Oreos. Go!"

 

I'm open to suggestions on how to get the younger less 'knotty' boys involved.

[King Ding Dong]

I don't worry about the merit badges as much as I do the core skills in those first four ranks. Merit Badges are what they are.

 

So, I go over those core skills repeatedly. My Scouts will know all the knots, compass, map reading, outdoor skills, first-aid, safety, etc. when they are adults.

Make them sit in the chair?

 

Seriously I would make all the t-1 scouts tie the knots with instruction and leadership from the higher ranks.

[Venividi]

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

Cant enforce it, nor do I think it should be. Required reading is too much like school. You get to do the reading, and teach leadership in a platonic sort of way by asking leading questions to get the leaders to reflect and figure things out. No requirement for you to read them either; though knowing what BSA tinks the leaders should be doing will make you a more effective ASM

[Stosh]

Mentoring is the name of the game. One cannot fall into the trap of doing it for them. I for one read the book, pick out the high points and when the boy runs into a problem related to that section, simply cite the reference. "I think the third chapter in the PL handbook would be a very helpful read." If he balks and wants you to tell him what it says, refer to your fuzzy memory and suggest that he read it to make sure it is clear. I've done this plenty of times and many of the boys will read more than just the part that answers their questions. It gets them to at least open the book and their curiosity tends to take over and if the material is helpful, they'll read more and more of it. I have done this so often than many of my scouts can cite the references to others as well. There's not one boy that has been in my troop that doesn't know TF #9 requirement is the first lesson in leadership offered by the BSA program.

[Eagle92]

I do not envy your situation KDD. Your troop sounds like the troop I was hoping my son would join in a few months. Part of me wants to quote the 9th Doctor, " RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!" (caps to show shouting in orignal, not at you), and part of me is hopeful that things will change with my son's den and the group of parents involved with it and will continue on.

 

Someone stated that you start talkign about difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts in Webelos. I respectfully disagree, I say start in Tigers.. I was also lucky enough to have a Den Chief for all of Wolves, and a 2-3 months in Bears. Gave him up to the Webelos Den that lost their DL and needed someone with outdoor expereince to help them. THAT DEN CHIEF MADE AN IMPRESSIONON BOTH THE CUBS AND PARENTS! ( EMPHASIS AGAIN). The parents were thoroughly impressed when I would hand over meetings to him to organize and run. Did I have to reign him in a bit at times, yep. He was passionate about Scouting and could lose track of time or forget he's with Cubs and not Boy Scouts.

 

Anyway my advice is the following, and this is what I will be trying to do in a few months.

 

1) Chill out! Yep it's time to step back and let him start making decisions, taking initiative, and doing things on his own. Difficult? ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY, especially when the patrol he's assigned to work with is royally screwing up, not getting things done, bickering etc etc. Got so bad I had to leave the campsite several times and visit friends at the event so I would get involved.

 

2) Let him HAVE FUN!

 

3) If he starts having problems, counsel, advise, and maybe even look for another unit.

 

I know I had one pack leader ticked off at me and accuse me of not being loyal to the pack when I encouraged one family to try another pack since things didn't seem to be working out for them. Had to tell them that every unit is diffferent and a different pack may meet their needs better. Rather lose them to another unit and keep them in Scouting than lose them alltogether.

[Eagle92]

Well, Looks like the overbearing parents have taken over the troop mentioned above. Since the last post the Old SM of the troop was told by one of the parents that he didn't know what he was doing and the troop is running so much better since he stepped down when he tried to offer advice to her son who was the Troop Guide of the patrol he was ASM for. On several occasions I commented that the former CM needed to step back and let the scouts do the work, only to be told in no uncertain terms that I am not part of the troop and to but out.

 

Sad thing is, my hope for the troop, is seeing some of this and has some concerns. His old troop was restarted about 4 years ago, and it sounds as if he may go there to help them get reestablished, especially since his old SM is still involved with them.

 

Good news is that oldest enjoyed a Webelos Overnighter that another troop put on for the Webelos who attended day camp. He had a great time at the overnighter once day camp was finished.

 

And I got to use ' Have you asked your PL?" for real finally

[Khaliela]

KDD step back relax....It will happen when it does....Your scout is what 11????? Generally our boys don't get to take swimming till their third trip to summer camp???? So they are 13 or so.

 

I know this is off topic, but around here swimming is considered a great 1st year MB. Lifesaving is generally for older scouts. Where are camping???

[Stosh]

Generally speaking, swimming and first aid are expected in the first summer camp along with another fun MB. Being around a lot of water, there aren't many activities that don't have some kind of water basis, swimming, sailing, canoeing, kayaking, fishing, etc. without swimming ability, the boys quickly drop out of the program. No one wants to sit on the dock and watch all the other boys having fun.

[Eagle92]

My Opinion.

 

1) FIRST AID MB ( emphasis not shouting) People find out you're a Scout, the expect you to know first aid, even if you just crossed over to Boy Scouts abotu 2-3 weeks previous to the emergency,

 

2) Swimming MB OR Instructional Swim.

 

3) Any Handicraft MB.