May 23rd predictions and post-vote plans

[DigitalScout]

What I found interesting after watching the video conference on National's website is that allowing gay scouts will be all inclusive and not be at the discretion of any CO. That means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles. If this passes on May 23rd we all may be witnessing the beginning of the demise of boy scouting. Yet another case of National trying to mandate to the CO's an unenforceable policy. Maybe it is time to bring back Woodcraft Rangers, Sons of Daniel Boone, etc.

That DE probably meant that a child can be denied membership for behavioral problems which is different than denying membership based on ethnicity or religious beliefs.

[packsaddle]

What I can tell you is basically the story he told me: He had been attending his district round table' date=' and noticed that they were always opened with an overtly Christian prayer. This didn't bother him much, he just assumed that was because only Christians were volunteering to lead the prayer. So he offered to lead the opening prayer at the next round table. He was told that non-Christian prayers were not allowed, and to justify that he was told a story about the last time it was tried (basically the result was threats and violence - he told me the story as he remembered it, we both felt it was so over the top - it had to be grossly exaggerated).[/quote']

 

We attended a summer camp a long while back where the camp chaplain (eastern state, rural) was Jesus-this and Jesus-that. I pointed out that many troops had Jews, Muslims, Hindus and other religions and he should be more open. His replay, "Jesus will eventually speak to them." :rollseyes:

 

I doubt this is wide spread, but it is out there.

That attitude is definitely common in the South but in my immediate area most Protestant denominations have COs that are more 'open', as you put it. Go any direction in a 5 mile radius and it all changes.

[Jeffrey H]

Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.

 

I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny

 

Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.

 

I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny

 

Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

Meanwhile in the UK, they've also allowed gays and their membership is growing so fast they have to limit membership due to a shortage of adult leaders. Post hoc.

[Kahuna]

I say again, there are no valid reasons, other than religious, for the exclusion of gays at any level of Scouting. If the BSA is truly nonsectarian, then there is no reason to ban them. For the benefit of those concerned about gay leaders taking boys into the woods, Wayne Brock stated that we have the best youth protection program of any youth organization. So, either the BSA is a religious organization with a particular religious bias, or it isn't.

[click23]

What I found interesting after watching the video conference on National's website is that allowing gay scouts will be all inclusive and not be at the discretion of any CO. That means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles. If this passes on May 23rd we all may be witnessing the beginning of the demise of boy scouting. Yet another case of National trying to mandate to the CO's an unenforceable policy. Maybe it is time to bring back Woodcraft Rangers, Sons of Daniel Boone, etc.

Huzzar, DEs are not always right, you need to read the the resolution, ...."No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone."

[Huzzar]

What I found interesting after watching the video conference on National's website is that allowing gay scouts will be all inclusive and not be at the discretion of any CO. That means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles. If this passes on May 23rd we all may be witnessing the beginning of the demise of boy scouting. Yet another case of National trying to mandate to the CO's an unenforceable policy. Maybe it is time to bring back Woodcraft Rangers, Sons of Daniel Boone, etc.

I read it. One unit saying thanks but no thanks doesn't deny him membership of BSA. This is a resolution that stops National from being forced to kick a boy out of Scouting because somebody dropped a dime. National can't force any group of volunteers from accepting a gay boy in their unit.

[Huzzar]

Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.

 

I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny

 

Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

UK's growth might have more to do with getting Bear Grylls to be Chief Scout (or whatever he's called). We still have geriatric white guys instead of men that kill and eat rattle snakes. :-)

 

Should also point out that the bottle neck in UK's further growth is adults don't want to volunteer and be accused of being kiddy diddlers, which is more of a concern now they let gay adult men sign up to take boys into the woods for 10 days.

[ghjim]

We have a cub scout mom starting a BPSA unit for her 7yo daughter. We will be running the BPSA program in parallel to our cub scout program and treating the BPSA unit just like a den.

I wonder if the BSA will try to stop BPSA in the U.S. in the event that it starts to grow. They have done that before with other scouting programs.

[Huzzar]

Does Wayne Brock have any 12 year old sons or grandsons? If so, I offer to find two gay guys that are willing to take them into a wilderness area for 10 days. Just the kids and the two gay guys. I will guarantee that the two gay guys have passed the local school's child protection background check and have watched a video about Youth Protection on BSA website.

 

Think he'll bite?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Should also point out that the bottle neck in UK's further growth is adults don't want to volunteer and be accused of being kiddy diddlers' date=' which is more of a concern now they let gay adult men sign up to take boys into the woods for 10 days.[/quote']

 

Got a cite for that?

 

[MattR]

Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.

 

I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny

 

Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

It's pretty easy to copy and paste tables into spread sheets and graph them. Canada changed their policy in 98. The drop in beavers and cubs (ages 5-10) from 1990 to 1998 was nearly a quarter of their membership (~20k, or 2.5k/year). From 98 to 05 they lost another 30k, or 4.3k/year. After 2005 it leveled off. All told, the younger scouts lost 3/4 of their membership from 1990 to 2005. Their venture scouts (ages 14-17) hasn't changed much from 90 to 12 (6800-6100). The age between the younger scouts and the older scouts was between those two extremes. While policy on gays may have had something to do with this, there's something else that's a lot bigger going on.

 

I found a similar chart for the bsa from 99 to 12. cub scouts has dropped from 2.2M to 1.5M (roughly 1/4 in 13 years. scouts has dropped from 1M to 900k (10%) and ventures went up from 202k to 220k. It's peak was at 293k in 02.

 

What all this says to me is the younger scout programs need help. Having been a den leader, I have to agree. I was clueless. I think these trends have more to do with parents being willing to volunteer more than anything else. Boy scouts have us old codgers around to hold things together while waiting for some enthusiastic blood. Cub scouts don't.

[packsaddle]

Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.

 

I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny

 

Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.

 

http://www.scoutscan.com/issues/membershipstats.html

MattR, I agree. I've seen this lack of attention to or regard for the cubs for as long as I've been in scouting. They seem taken for granted and yet they ARE the key to the future for all the rest. I'll write this again: I'd go back to the cubs in a heartbeat. I like them best of all and would gladly take that on again...far better than the boy scouts or venturers.

[Papadaddy]

Let's see...I am scheduled for a colonoscopy on the 24th, so the evening of the 23rd, I will be "prepping". Perhaps that's appropriate.

[Kahuna]

Does Wayne Brock have any 12 year old sons or grandsons? If so, I offer to find two gay guys that are willing to take them into a wilderness area for 10 days. Just the kids and the two gay guys. I will guarantee that the two gay guys have passed the local school's child protection background check and have watched a video about Youth Protection on BSA website.

 

Think he'll bite?

I don't know if Wayne has grandkids that age or not. I don't, but if I did, yes, I would be okay with that. Kids or grandkids. Assuming I knew the guys in question. That goes for letting kids go into the woods with any 2 guys who have passed the BSA background check. Why would you assume the gay guys would be any more likely to molest them than any other 2 men in Scouting? But, in fact, you are posing a strawman kind of argument, because normally 2 boys and 2 men would not be going on a Scout outing.