May 23rd predictions and post-vote plans

[King Ding Dong]

I don't believe the policy was well know till the Dale decision....

 

as a youth in the 70's I don't believe the policy was well known at all. We had a gay ASM back then, single lived with his mother, No big deal, parents kinda raised their eyebrows when he was around never knew why to much later.... BTW, that was pre-youth protection.

Never claimed there was a Golden Age. Thanks for clearing up your argument. A good history lesson also. The BSA should recognize the laws of every state they operate in. Therefor the BSA policies against admitting people involved in criminal acts were insufficient, for those in some states.

[King Ding Dong]

llinois was the first state to decriminalize the act of sodomy (in 1962) ' date=' but it was still a criminal offense to solicit another to commit sodomy. Other states gradually repealed the consensual sodomy laws until the 2003 SCOTUS decision (reversing its earlier 1986 decision which said states COULD have anti-sodomy laws).[/quote']

 

Good point. But a good question is, how many states enforced those laws in the 60s, 70s and 80s? One of the local towns still has a law on the books that says it is illegal to drive a car without having a bell ringer walking in front of the car to announce it's presence*. I don't know of anyone (including me) that has had that law enforced upon. I don't know the answer to my question. Anyone have info on that?

 

* That same town apparently has a law on the books that says it's illegal to allow your donkey to sleep in the bathtub. I would love to know the history on that one!

There are also towns that have laws against scoring a touchdown against the home HS team. They are in Texas IIRC

[King Ding Dong]

Prediction? I won't be surprised either way, really. If you put a gun against my head I'd say they'll allow gay kids.

 

Plans? If no, I plan to get angry at every loudmouth that sounds off for the next 2 weeks until some Senator farts and distracts the 24-hour news cycle.

If yes, meh. I knew of a few gay kids in our troop when I was a scout myself, and I've been aware of a couple as an adult. The difference now is that kids are pushed to come out as soon as, if not before, they've got their first pube, so it's a different dynamic: It's one thing to have a "funny" kid in the troop, it will be another thing to have an honest-to-God gay kid in the troop. Every normal molehill slight will be made a bigotry mountain, every funny look will be sexual harassment. For every kid that doesn't give a rip, there'll be at least one parent with grave concerns. So, it'll just be learning to deal with the new tension.

Media will be a nightmare either way. First 15-yr-old that gets screwed by a 19-yr-old will be called a victim of "pedophilia" which is a joke. Or, worse, the victims will simply be ignored from now on, since they were never more to the media than a tool in the first place. A yes vote won't satisfy any of the weirdos and their "allies" since it won't allow adults, so we'll have another round of Kick the BSA. And in a year all we're going to get is a crusade over atheists with lots of "we won on gays" smearing in our faces.

 

Maybe I'll add "invest in Valium" to my plans.

Ativan and Xanax at much better. Give them a try and find your happy place.

 

Oh, and take a deep breath, that helps also.

 

If you put a gun to my head, I think the vote will be for no change. My reasoning is that the old Scouters are casting the votes.

[Rick_in_CA]

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

 

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

[Basementdweller]

I don't believe the policy was well know till the Dale decision....

 

as a youth in the 70's I don't believe the policy was well known at all. We had a gay ASM back then, single lived with his mother, No big deal, parents kinda raised their eyebrows when he was around never knew why to much later.... BTW, that was pre-youth protection.

You guys are ridiculous....I was a teenage boy, what did I know about the world?????

 

The guy was different, his uniform was always ironed with creases, Patches perfect, perfectly shahved and he wore aftershave or something....He was very different from our dads.

 

He was a youth member of the troop and everyone accepted him for who he was.......To my knowledge there was never an issue......

 

It was a different time in the 70'S as well......Outing someone took more effort.....you simply didn't shoot a txt or email to council to do it.....You had to either call and do it verbally, hand write a letter or type a letter on a manual type writer then put it in the mail box. To much of an effort for most parents.

 

in the 70's chase out gays wasn't a big BSA priority.....Nor was chasing out all of the child molesters.......They were too busy merging councils and selling camps off.

[Twocubdad]

My plan is to call all the jackasses who said they would quit if the vote went one way or the other and remind them a Scout is Trustworthy.

[King Ding Dong]

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

 

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

Hey Rick, there will always be a contingent of wing nuts in any organization. These nut jobs are just blowing steam because they are on the losing side of history and they know it. The only way they win is if you leave.

[MattR]

My plan is to keep working on the Patrol Method in my troop. We've made a lot of really great progress in the past year.

 

Irrespective of all the bloviating going on by adults far far away, my scouts are a bunch of great kids and are the reason I keep going. The people that say the country is going to hell don't know the scouts in my troop, or probably any other troop. Most of the scouts would be fine with gay scouts and some would be real uncomfortable. Either way, they know the right thing to do, they can be tougher critics than the adults, they can figure out how to get along with each other better than the adults, and they are our future. If sexuality were one of the methods of scouting I'd quit if this vote didn't go my way. But it has nothing to do with how my troop operates.

 

The only thing this whole issue has anything to do with is future membership. The BSA should reflect the USA. It's probably close right now. Part of the population is OK with gays, part is not. Whether they are good people has nothing to do with their views on homosexuality. If all those that are OK with gays leave the BSA then it will no longer reflect the country and a century old institution will go down the drain within a generation. That would be a shame.

 

There is no comparable organization to the BSA. I looked at the BPSA and my troop is roughly the size of their entire membership. I don't care what anyone says, religious youth groups are run by religious leaders and they don't have nearly as much fun as we do. That's not to say the BSA doesn't have challenges. They just don't have anything to do with the 3 G's.

[Krampus]

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

 

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

@Rick in CA: You cannot seriously think that the people who don't want gays in Scouting are on an all out crusade to get ride of the non-Christians too. I am not saying they are not out there -- just as there are the rainbow-pride folks who want openly gay leaders to be allowed -- but I think that is a VERY small minority of people in Scouting. From my read of people in my council I would say we are 60/40 or 70/30 in favor of the current policy but using a more don't ask/don't tell approach. The minority would be in favor of allowing Scouts to stay even if they come out. I have yet to meet anyone personally who is at either end of that spectrum.

 

To be honest, if you have been part of Scouting for a while, it is still the same place you always liked. That discriminatory policy has always been in place, so leaving after losing a vote is a bit silly in my opinion. Now, if you were on the other side of the debate and saw the organization you knew parting with values they (and you) have held for a long time, then I could see leaving if the vote goes opposite your view point. But leaving after losing would be like me joining the NRA and then quitting after the assault weapons ban fails.

[raisinemright]

I will not leave the scouts if the resolution passes or fails. I will not leave because I will not deny my son the scouting experience. It is a worthwhile and valuable experience, even if the organization includes this horrible flaw. It is not a fatal flaw. If the child abuse scandals did not destroy the BSA, I can't see how the mistreatment of such a small minority is going to destroy it. If I refused to associate with organizations or people who failed to live up to their own ideals, I would find myself very, very isolated.

 

I will continue to lobby for change if the resolution passes or fails. I will start wearing a rainbow neckerchief slide to roundtable just to be provocative. I've decided to become provocative because I've been watching the 1982 Gandhi film. I came to appreciate his method very much. A few quotes: "The function of a civil resistance is to provoke response and we will continue to provoke until they respond or change the law." / "And when you do that [turn the other cheek], it calls on something in human nature... something that makes his hatred for you decrease and his respect increase." / "I want to change their minds. I don't want to kill them for weaknesses we all posses."

 

I honestly believe that the whole problem is a rather simple matter of us v. them. My attitudes towards homosexuals changed a great deal when I actually had dealings with real live homosexuals in the work place, day after day. We are the same. Homosexuals make up a small minority of Americans. They make up an even smaller minority of scouts. If more scouters had more contact with homosexual scouts and parents, there would be less fear and more acceptance. I don't know how to make that happen.

Yea, I worked with a guy like that. He wasn't too obnoxious about being gay, then he ended up in jail for pederasty. According to the an article in the archives of Sexual Behavior entitled Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters, 86% of pedophiles are self-described homosexuals. While I firmly agree that not all homosexuals are child molesters, I'm not willing to take that chance with any Scouts under my charge.

[King Ding Dong]

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

 

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

I can't recall which ones but several of our founding fathers were UU or held similar beliefs.

[EmberMike]

To be fair, the BSA has a century more history than the BPSA, so the big difference in membership numbers is expected. More significantly, I'd look at the percentage growth of the BSA vs. the BPSA, which I'm sure will be significantly higher for the BPSA and will continue to remain so regardless of how the vote goes next week. I'd expect that BPSA growth rate to increase significantly if the BSA vote reaffirms the membership policy.

 

[Scouter99]

To be fair, the BSA has a century more history than the BPSA, so the big difference in membership numbers is expected. More significantly, I'd look at the percentage growth of the BSA vs. the BPSA, which I'm sure will be significantly higher for the BPSA and will continue to remain so regardless of how the vote goes next week. I'd expect that BPSA growth rate to increase significantly if the BSA vote reaffirms the membership policy.

Rate of growth doesn't say anything either. BPSA will have a higher rate of growth for decades (if they're not sued out of business) until they saturate, at which point, just like BSA, they will stay even or drop off.

[AZMike]

@mozartbrau - The BSA anti-gay policy is well known among scouters. The general public for the most part isn't aware of the policy. I've had parents approach me after a couple of years in scouting and were surprised that such a policy exists. I'm surprised too. It is 2013 afterall.

 

Yeah, but this is the same general public that does not read anything anyway. Most people are sheep and cannot be bothered to do their homework. They would read the TV Guide with more vigor than the major membership policies of an organization that will take care of their son hundreds of miles from home. Go figure. [i am rolling my eyes hard on that one]

I think most any city that had a police squad with a Vice Squad did, Rick. If you solicited an undercover vice cop in a gay bar, in an adult bookstore (as my high school principal did - he got several years), in a park that was a "cruising" area, in a public restroom, you were going to jail and maybe prison. Those weren't those weird "it is illegal to wear a squirrel on your head in August in Maine" jokey kind of local ordinances you read about. There were a lot of celebrities whose arrests for homosexual solicitation damaged their careers.

[Huzzar]

I think it will be a narrow defeat. BSA has come up with the motion based on one question in the poll that they sent out and assumed it would get a yes vote. I'm in a left-leaning part of the country and here it is 50/50 among adult leaders for a change. In more conservative parts of the country it's overwhelmingly against.

 

If it passes my FOS contributions cease but I won't walk away from BSA as a volunteer. That occurs if they ever decide that homosexual adults are appropriate leaders to take 16 year old boys into the woods for 10 days.