Did anyone else get hate spewing email this morning?

[Kahuna]

I didn't get the email and no one I know did either. I'm happy about that, but very disappointed in the fact that such an overwhelming majority of leaders and parents are in favor of keeping the ban. The ones I work with directly seem to be pretty much on the side of letting gays in at all levels. Now, I don't see that happening in the near future. I fear the vote will be in favor of keeping the status quo. I guess I could live with that, but knowing all these other Scouters feel the way they do makes me uncomfortable. I will probably continue as a Scouter, but will never feel quite the same about Scouting again.

[AZMike]

Kahuna, either we will keep things as they are, or allow homosexual scouts. People will be unhappy either way. Even if we allow in homosexual scouts, some people will be still be unsatisfied because we won't allow homosexual or bisexual or transvestite adult leaders. Other people will be unhappy because we don't allow in atheists. Others will be unhappy because we don't allow girls in as scouts. Others will be unhappy because we don't allow scouts to use medical marijuana in summer camp. Others will be unhappy because we won't let someone with a past felony conviction become a scout leader. There are always new causes, and new groups advocating those causes, on the horizon. The BSA occupies the precarious position of being seen as a National Institution, along with Mom and Apple Pie, so any group seeking validation will always advocate for inclusion or change of policy to accommodate them. Sometimes that will be appropriate, other times not, and we will all unfortunately have to disagree on some of those.

 

I don't belong to any group with whose policies I am in complete agreement. Because every group is made up of other humans who also think (as I do) that they know best how to run things, there will always be disagreements. If new policies make the group unsafe for youths, legally hazardous to me, or if they are immoral, I will leave. I'm still on the fence on the proposed new policy, tending towards retaining the old policy, which is workable and strikes the best balance for youth inclusion (DADT, without sexualizing or discussing scout's identities) without becoming mired in a legal morass. I get that others disagree with me, but the majority seem to favor my position at this time. We will never have a compromise or solution that makes everyone happy in our politically polarized society. Never. Things may change over the years with a new generation coming in, but most people also tend to become more conservative as they age, so public opinion may not change as much as some think, and recent history has shown us that the public opinion on some liberal positions (and some conservative opinions, to be honest) that once seemed certain to become the dominant mode of thought in society have, in fact, reversed themselves, so nothing is certain. Today's Scouts will also be tomorrows Scouters, so the same process will apply to them. Certainly, my views were more liberal when they I was younger, but people change and evolve.

 

Certain politically liberal regions of the country may have a loss in membership if the new policy doesn't pass, and certain politically conservative regions may take a larger hit if the new policy does pass, but in most cases, personal inertia will be the guiding force and as long as people are generally happy with their son's involvement in Scouting and with the personal relationships they've formed in Scouting, I think the majority are likely to remain.

 

They may grumble, post angry forum messages, and wear rainbow kerchief slides or those little rainbow knots to broadcast their disappointment to whomever will notice, (or a "Does not Equal" symbol patch, or whatever) but I think most people will be okay with the status quo, or the new proposal. If the new proposal is the foot in the door that causes radical changes within the organization that some fear (mandatory gay sensitivity training in adult leader training or NYLT, gay scout participation in Gay Pride parades as in Canada, etc.), then yes, expect a lot of people to start leaving.

 

[moosetracker]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

 

[skeptic]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

"If" the resolution as written passes, those individuals noted here would then be in direct violation of the policy. Few here seem to even notice that there are other parts of the resolution beyond allowing kids who feel they are Gay. One of them is against public political statements of any kind in relation to Scouting.

[King Ding Dong]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

Skeptic, even out of uniform? Any write up about the other provisions. Would like to see what they are.

[skeptic]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

King; just read the entire proposal.

[skeptic]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

King and others: Here is the link to National's comments and clarifications on the whole proposal. I also have quoted part of it specific to my earlier comments.

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/FAQ.aspx

 

1. This proposal is in line with Scouting's principles and virtues.

Some have asserted that having different standards for adults and youth is illogical or contradictory and runs counter to the principles of Scouting. Asserting this proposal is contradictory is based on a misunderstanding of the resolution. The resolution states:

 Youth are still developing, learning about themselves and who they are, developing their sense of right and wrong, and understanding their duty to God to live a moral life.

 Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

 The organization will maintain its current membership policy for all adult leaders.

 No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda.

 Members must demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

By reinforcing that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, this resolution rightly recognizes there is a difference between kids and adults while remaining true to the long-standing virtues of Scouting.

[Kahuna]

Kahuna, either we will keep things as they are, or allow homosexual scouts. People will be unhappy either way. Even if we allow in homosexual scouts, some people will be still be unsatisfied because we won't allow homosexual or bisexual or transvestite adult leaders. Other people will be unhappy because we don't allow in atheists. Others will be unhappy because we don't allow girls in as scouts. Others will be unhappy because we don't allow scouts to use medical marijuana in summer camp. Others will be unhappy because we won't let someone with a past felony conviction become a scout leader. There are always new causes, and new groups advocating those causes, on the horizon. The BSA occupies the precarious position of being seen as a National Institution, along with Mom and Apple Pie, so any group seeking validation will always advocate for inclusion or change of policy to accommodate them. Sometimes that will be appropriate, other times not, and we will all unfortunately have to disagree on some of those.

 

I don't belong to any group with whose policies I am in complete agreement. Because every group is made up of other humans who also think (as I do) that they know best how to run things, there will always be disagreements. If new policies make the group unsafe for youths, legally hazardous to me, or if they are immoral, I will leave. I'm still on the fence on the proposed new policy, tending towards retaining the old policy, which is workable and strikes the best balance for youth inclusion (DADT, without sexualizing or discussing scout's identities) without becoming mired in a legal morass. I get that others disagree with me, but the majority seem to favor my position at this time. We will never have a compromise or solution that makes everyone happy in our politically polarized society. Never. Things may change over the years with a new generation coming in, but most people also tend to become more conservative as they age, so public opinion may not change as much as some think, and recent history has shown us that the public opinion on some liberal positions (and some conservative opinions, to be honest) that once seemed certain to become the dominant mode of thought in society have, in fact, reversed themselves, so nothing is certain. Today's Scouts will also be tomorrows Scouters, so the same process will apply to them. Certainly, my views were more liberal when they I was younger, but people change and evolve.

 

Certain politically liberal regions of the country may have a loss in membership if the new policy doesn't pass, and certain politically conservative regions may take a larger hit if the new policy does pass, but in most cases, personal inertia will be the guiding force and as long as people are generally happy with their son's involvement in Scouting and with the personal relationships they've formed in Scouting, I think the majority are likely to remain.

 

They may grumble, post angry forum messages, and wear rainbow kerchief slides or those little rainbow knots to broadcast their disappointment to whomever will notice, (or a "Does not Equal" symbol patch, or whatever) but I think most people will be okay with the status quo, or the new proposal. If the new proposal is the foot in the door that causes radical changes within the organization that some fear (mandatory gay sensitivity training in adult leader training or NYLT, gay scout participation in Gay Pride parades as in Canada, etc.), then yes, expect a lot of people to start leaving.

All of which is why I will likely stay on Scouting, although my feelings about my fellow Scouters will not be quite the same as they were. Of course, they really haven't been the same for a while now, because the people in Scouting are not the same. I shouldn't be surprised, since society has changed so much, that people in Scouting change too. What it really comes down to for me is, how can I help boys (nothing against girls, they just aren't what this program is about) to become better men and better citizens.

[Gone]

There is nothing on the news here. Nothing on the national news that I have seen, though given how the national media picks and chooses what should be an issues I am not surprised.

 

If there are Scouts or Scouters making political statements of ANY kind they should be sanctioned. Current rules preclude that.

[King Ding Dong]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

I think it is a real stretch to interpret the resolution as preventing members of scouting from engaging in social or political ativities outside scouting. This forum is outside scouting. A troop meeting, campout, BOR or roundtable is inside scouting. You used the word public the resolution does not.

 

Does it mean you can't put on your uniform and go on TV or picket a funeral and scream "God hates fags". Yes. Does it mean you can't do the same in a troop meeting in the church basement. Yes. Wearing street clothes outside of scouting activities ? I don't think so.

[AZMike]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

"No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda"

 

KingDingDong and skeptic,, would you also interpret the proposal to mean you shouldn't wear accessories reflecting a political agenda on the Scout uniform (political campaign buttons, rainbow knots, rainbow kerchief slides, patches supporting - or advocating against - LGBT inclusion, etc.)? Does the new resolution support removal from scouting for those that violate this rule?

[packsaddle]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

AZMike, as it has been explained to me by council, we have ALWAYS been subject to removal if we engaged in activities like that, even wearing little rainbow things on the uniform.According to that particular SE, BSA has always had the option of using that means to remove speech. So...fair is fair.

[King Ding Dong]

Well then it seems it must have been sent out by a local guy, or some group targeting specific Councils.. Everyone I have asked got the emails, of course I only asked those in district or council I did not ask the unit level scouters. So someone could have pulled our email off the council website, or, they have access to the council list through other means.. Don't know why they would hit a northern Council with it, it only will anger us in the opposite direction then where they want to push us.

 

 

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them, be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place

 

 

I would follow the Insignia Guide. Campaign buttons and patches outside the temporary location are not allowed. There is no restriction on slides.

 

You raise an interesting point because there is a certain amount of individualism allowed on the uniform. If a rainbow slide were allowed, would an aborted fetus slide be allowed ? Extreme example, but not implausible. Or a "God hates fags" temporary patch. In the case of patches the BSA could certainly start enforcing its current rule against non-BSA sanctioned patches on the uniform. The slides and neckerchiefs I am not sure about.

 

I suppose I would support banning symbols that are commonly used to portray issues that are really outside the purview of Scouting.

 

I think removal from scouting is a last resort for those that after warnings refuse to comply with National rules.

[Scouter99]

Krumpus you haven't been watching the news have you?.. There are scouters in uniform standing in open public squares spreading these hate messages with signs and public speechs. With kids all around them' date=' be it youth scouts or just youths with their parents passing by a public place [/quote']

 

Only two words for a claim like that: Show. me. Social conservative that I am, NPR is my main news source and they cover gay issues like 97% of the population is gay rather than 3%, and they haven't said a peep. Not one HuffPost article in my FB newsfeed which has seen lots of anti-BSA content over the past year. This is the only photo I can find in a quick search that resembles what you're talking about: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/06/nation/la-na-boy-scout-gays-20130207

 

What are you calling "hate speech?" "Stand strong" "Keep scouts morally straight"? Hardly hateful.

Or do you simply take issue with Scouters advocating a position in uniform, hateful or not? I'm sure, then, that you're very disappointed that Zach Walls, Will Oliver, Jennifer Tyrell &c. have been wearing their uniforms to do the same. I'm sure that you denounce scouts/scouters who wear the rainbow square knot. I'm certain that you're cringing at the idea of the Inclusive Scouting Network exploiting youth in uniforms to read anonymous (and therefore unverifiable) letters from gay scouts to the media (http://www.inclusivescouting.net/2013/05/08/the-voice-of-the-gay-scout/). If you can stand their god-awful 1996 web design long enough to get to the photo galleries, I'm positive that it grates your nerves that Scouting For All activists wear their uniforms to their demonstrations (http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/photo_albums/photoAlbumMain.html)

Indeed, it seems that for every scouter demonstrating support of the status quo in uniform, there are a dozen "reformers" demonstrating in their uniforms.

 

So, we all agree that this is a problem and against the rules, but let's get serious: It's a you problem.

 

 

[Krampus]

There are two cotrolling policies on statements of political support or activism that apply to the uniform issue:

 

1) The rules governing when and where to wear the uniform are clear. Essentially, if it is not a Scouting activitiy then its a no-no. I think we are all smart enough to know where the grey areas are. Wearing it to a 5k for breast cancer because the Scouts are doing a flag ceremony? Yes. Wearing the uniform because your troop is setting up chairs for service hours? Yes. Doing those same funcations at a political rally? No. When in doubt ask your council.

 

2) As far as badges or patches like the rainbow knot, the Insignia Guide and BSA policy on approved licensees of BSA products are also pretty clear. If the temp patch is making a statement or supportive of a cause it cannot be worn. Period. That goes for gay rainbox ribbons, breast cancer ribbons, wound warrior patches, etc.

 

In my troop we follow a simply policy: If it did not come from the Scout Shop, Council, District or OA we simply do not wear it. The ONLY exception are homemade neckerchief slides (as long as they follow guidelines), temp patches we do as a troop (very seldom and done through classB) for special events and that's it.

 

I even asked an ASM to remove his "I Voted" sticker at a meeting last fall. Rather than invite argument or debate I thought it best remove it. He did...without question.