New controversy...Let's let girls into all levels of Scouting

[walk in the woods]

Now the notion that females would take over the BSA' date=' that's an interesting concept. It just might happen. That's not a BSA issue, that is Life in This World issue, since about the late sixties. Men--ones who are good citizens in their community, are faithful to their families, work for a living--are far and few between these days. Lots of 20, 30, 40 year old "guys" in the world, who show no responsibility, and are committed solely to their own amusement and comfort. So yes, we see lots of women raising kids on their own, and running scout units and just about everything else. Sadly, I don't see a change in that in the future. But that's a whole different topic. [/quote']

 

A different topic indeed but no doubt at least partially created because we've spent the last 40 years devaluing boys and men and their roles in society.

 

 

[walk in the woods]

Boys behave differently in the presence of girls as a matter of fact. This is simply because girls are different, and even Cub Scouts realize it. They think different, act different, and learn different.

 

A method of Scouting is Uniforming. While any boy of any background can conform to the mores and norms of a group of boys, it is a rare girl that's able to do so.

 

While I agree it can still be fun with girls, and in often cases more fun with the girls present, something is lost in the learning and development sphere when the boys are behaving in a way that conforms to a standard of mixed gender learning instead of only having to conform to the standards of "boys being boys". The best example is the silencing factor girls have on most boys. Because they realize the thoughts of girls are different, there is less blurting out of boy thoughts. Those are often pretty profound in the sense that they show where a boy's understanding of the subject matter lies.

 

If it were that reason alone, I'd continue to wholeheartedly support gender segregation in Scouting.

Well, a number of more conservative religions do separate men and women at worship. My very liberal congregation (UCC) has Men's Groups and Women's Groups because we acknowlege the differences in the genders and how people learn.

[King Ding Dong]

It wouldn't of course. It is just lazy way of fixing the problems with Girl Scouts.

[desertrat77]

Now the notion that females would take over the BSA' date=' that's an interesting concept. It just might happen. That's not a BSA issue, that is Life in This World issue, since about the late sixties. Men--ones who are good citizens in their community, are faithful to their families, work for a living--are far and few between these days. Lots of 20, 30, 40 year old "guys" in the world, who show no responsibility, and are committed solely to their own amusement and comfort. So yes, we see lots of women raising kids on their own, and running scout units and just about everything else. Sadly, I don't see a change in that in the future. But that's a whole different topic. [/quote'] A different topic indeed but no doubt at least partially created because we've spent the last 40 years devaluing boys and men and their roles in society.

 

True...........................

[BadenP]

I think all you naysayers better look at some hard facts, the BSA being a "male" group which is not entirely true is NOT a valid argument to support your objections. Your idea of only male role models in scouts is an antiquated idea which is no longer valid in todays society, like it or not. The fact is most of you old time scouters are rapidly aging out of the program and the younger replacements coming on board are much more open to the idea of coed units. The other fact is that the BSA continues to lose members and community/corporate support at an ever increasing rate each year and if National has any idea of how to survive, which I seriously doubt they do, scouting will have to evolve and change to reflect the ideology and needs of the current and future crop of parents and society whether you agree or not otherwise scouting will wither away as an irrelevant and outdated organization. The future is here now, it is time to get on board or be left behind.

[Pack18Alex]

As a father with one son and two younger daughters... There is a difference. If my wife has a meeting, I'll often have my younger girls with me. The boys still rough house, but it's different when the girls are there, even at this totally non sexual age. So in an ideal world, I'd say keep them separate.

 

That said, I am my Pack Committee Chair, with no real Pack Committee to speak of, and it's a ton of work. The fact that my wife is out right now at a meeting for the new GSUSA troop we're starting up for the girls is why I'd like to see it co-ed. The fact is, GSUSA is a totally different organization with a different agenda. I'd be thrilled if BSA would dump a pile of books/uniforms on us for Girl Cubs that channels girl interests (like cubs channels boy interests) into citizenship. We could see each other once/month at the Pack meeting, run separate Dens, and show off what we've done.

 

Instead, I have piles of paperwork for two organizations in my house, my wife and I both registered as leaders, and my figuring out how to handle campouts, because we can't double the number, and the GSUSA rules are atrocious.

 

Nor is my garage really big enough to double all our camping gear...

 

[Pack18Alex]

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

 

[acco40]

I went to quite of few DIBC (Dorchester International Brotherhood Camporee) in London, Ontario every May. Boy Scout troops from all over the northeast attend as well as members from Scouts Canada (a 100% coed organization). I was neutral on the concept for the BSA and had quite a few discussions with our Canadian friends about the plusses and minuses of having a coed Scouting program. The biggest drawback in their eyes was the need (and rightfully so) to have as a minimum at least one registered female adult go on any outing if a female scout attends. The burden was on the troop to find a volunteer - which most found difficult.

 

I noticed that the younger boy didn't seem to be affected nor care about the subject either way. However, the "middle age" boys (13-15) seemed to be almost awestruck and socially awkward around the Canadian female Scouts. Was I really that clueless and tactless at that age? I sure hope not. The older boys, 16 & 17, seemed to enjoy it and pretty much act in a mature manner. I can say that for almost all of the boys above the age of 13, having female Scouts in our midst did change the dynamic. Not necessarily for better or worse, just different.

[King Ding Dong]

As a father with one son and two younger daughters... There is a difference. If my wife has a meeting, I'll often have my younger girls with me. The boys still rough house, but it's different when the girls are there, even at this totally non sexual age. So in an ideal world, I'd say keep them separate.

 

That said, I am my Pack Committee Chair, with no real Pack Committee to speak of, and it's a ton of work. The fact that my wife is out right now at a meeting for the new GSUSA troop we're starting up for the girls is why I'd like to see it co-ed. The fact is, GSUSA is a totally different organization with a different agenda. I'd be thrilled if BSA would dump a pile of books/uniforms on us for Girl Cubs that channels girl interests (like cubs channels boy interests) into citizenship. We could see each other once/month at the Pack meeting, run separate Dens, and show off what we've done.

 

Instead, I have piles of paperwork for two organizations in my house, my wife and I both registered as leaders, and my figuring out how to handle campouts, because we can't double the number, and the GSUSA rules are atrocious.

 

Nor is my garage really big enough to double all our camping gear...

Problem one: parents agree to be partners when they sign the application. If they do not want to contribute to the Pack, there is no Pack. Go find another Pack. Have a parent meeting, list all the activities. If parents do not sign up to organize, erase the activity. No Pinewood Derby this year! If the list gets to sparse, you cannot deliver a cub program. The Pack absolutly has the right to require parents to volunteer their time and take a position of responsibility. Go find another Pack with parents that actually care about the program.

Problem 2: You expect the BSA to develope a program to channel girls interests into citizenship. Do you think they are qualified to do that ? If you think girls interests are the same as boys then I guess they are.

Problem 3: Where do you expect the BSA to find the resources to develop such a program ? If the Girl Scouts want to be absorbed by the BSA, I am sure National will listen to their proposal. I sure would welcome the opportunity to sell cookies rather than crummy popcorn. Don't expect the BSA to change their rules to accommodate atrocious ones developed by GSUSA.

Problem 4: You need to accept the fact that once you have children garages cease to be a place for motor vehicles. Unless you are willing to shell out 1-2 k for a shed.

Problem 5: in a pack every family is responsible for their own camping gear. You cannot have a non functioning Pack Committe and be the Pack Quartermaster.

 

I am going through many of the same problems with my pack. We are not the Baby Sitters of America. I demand a quality program for my son and if the other parents are not willing to help deliver that program, there is not going to be a program and they can go find a pack that is willing to accept them on those terms.

 

I know I can find a pack willing to accept what I have to offer. I bet you can also.

[AZMike]

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

I don't think an agency funded by billions in cookie sales will give up the fight so easily, my friend. Do not underestimate their power.

[AZMike]

I think all you naysayers better look at some hard facts, the BSA being a "male" group which is not entirely true is NOT a valid argument to support your objections. Your idea of only male role models in scouts is an antiquated idea which is no longer valid in todays society, like it or not. The fact is most of you old time scouters are rapidly aging out of the program and the younger replacements coming on board are much more open to the idea of coed units. The other fact is that the BSA continues to lose members and community/corporate support at an ever increasing rate each year and if National has any idea of how to survive, which I seriously doubt they do, scouting will have to evolve and change to reflect the ideology and needs of the current and future crop of parents and society whether you agree or not otherwise scouting will wither away as an irrelevant and outdated organization. The future is here now, it is time to get on board or be left behind.

Wait...if the the future is here now, then wouldn't today be tomorrow? And if have to get on board tomorrow to be on time, if I get left behind then it will still be tomorrow and I will have a chance to get another ticket the day after.

[King Ding Dong]

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

Strong in this one, the power of the Cookie is, indeed.

[Just A Rebel]

Wonderful discussion, everyone...And I never really had to truly activate the asbestos underwear...phew! I've been sitting back, just watching and listening, and there are many valid points. I'm going to start back at the beginning and start responding to some of these points, so you may have to wade back through some posts you have already read, totally your choice.But I am going to sum things up here.

 

Honestly, I hadn't even considered girls in Scouting until this campout where they were just as actively engaged as the boys were, doing the same activities as the boys and watching as we put on an amazing Arrow of Light and Crossover ceremony, and the same girls that were actively engaged in the activities were intensely interested in what was happening. There is an unmet need, and we have the ability to fill it for these girls. I now truly believe that the future of Scouting is coed at all levels, just like it is in so many other WOSM. I've been actively involved since my older son was a Bear, and my younger son was a Tiger, and they are Life and Star rank now. I've never seen anything in either the Cub or Boy Scout program that was gender-specific. There's nothing in the program that both boys and girls cannot do, equally as well as the other gender. Are program changes needed? Absolutely not, because the program as it exists today already would fill an unmet need in a girl's life, for those that WANT THIS PROGRAM. Its always, at all levels, 'Do Your Best'. Can a girl lead a flag ceremony? Can a girl hike and camp? Can a girl learn about knots, and fire-building, and everyday survival skills? Can a girl learn how to practice the Scout Oath and Law, every day, to the best of her ability? Can you imagine a world where more people lived the Oath and Law, and what that world would look like? I can.

 

Logistics changes on a unit level? Yeah, probably, would need female and male leaders in coed units...But that wheel has already been invented, it just needs to be brought down to a lower level and applied there.

 

If you look at the National, yes National Vision and Mission Statements, there is NOTHING about 'BOYS' in there.

 

Mission:

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Vision:

The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Its 'Young people' and 'youth', not 'Boys' and 'Young Men'. We are all passionate about this program, or we wouldn't be here. Why would we NOT want to give those girls that want what Scouting is about, the opportunity to find out for themselves the values of the Scout Oath and Law. So many units, especially Cub units, already allow siblings to participate in some activities. Why should we deny those siblings the opportunity to receive REAL RECOGNITION for what they accomplish alongside their brothers.

 

Was talking to a coed Venture Crew advisor tonight, and do you know where many of the girl Venturers come from? They are siblings to Boy Scouts, that want to do what their brothers do, but we won't let them until they are 14. How many of these would-be Venturers just give up before they even have a chance to get started?

 

And finally, Woodbadge preaches diversity, and yet, we are held back from applying the spirit of that diversity in a real and fundamental way. BSA is primed to make the move, everything is in place to allow coed units at all levels, all they, and we, need to do is take that scary step into the unknown to open up a world to these girls that they can only glimpse at, not really become part of.

[King Ding Dong]

I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

 

However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

I see two problems with those thoughts. Cub scouts is the only family oriented program, that ends at BS. Your solution creates a 10-13 year old doughnut hole.

 

The BS program is an Outdoor program with some family, community and faith.

 

I would be very interested in learning about in the atrocious camping regulations the GSUSA has. I tried a google search but all I came up with was that girls want flush toilets, climate controlled cabins, WIFI and other modern technologies at their camps, so they are selling properties to create more modern camps. (Sound like a Beaches or Sandals all inclusive resort). Why don't they just have a sleepover and call it a day. Sigh.

 

That mentality is why I suspect there will be even more resistance to letting girls in the BSA than in letting in homosexuals.

[Just A Rebel]

Some local units here already admit girls into Cub and Boy scouts

http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/cambridge-boy-scout-troop-bucks-national-trend-gay-participation

I followed up with this group, and they have found a workaround solution...Its certainly not ideal, but does allow girls to legitimately be registered with BSA for insurance purposes through the Learning for Life program.