BSA Membership Policy Change Proposal

[RememberSchiff]

The Mormon Church announced support for the membership policy change allowing gay scouts but not gay adult leaders.

 

http://www.lds.org/church/news/church-issues-statement-on-boy-scouts-of-america?cid=%20HP000057&lang=eng

 

“The current BSA proposal constructively addresses a number of important issues that have been part of the ongoing dialogue, including consistent standards for all BSA partners, recognition that Scouting exists to serve and benefit youth rather than Scout leaders, a single standard of moral purity for youth in the program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God."

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mormon-church-pleased-boy-scouts-proposal-19044828#.UXpF8MqyIzI

[AZMike]

Okay, RememberSchiff's comment has been sitting here all solitary and lonely-like for a while, so I'll comment.

 

LDS's somewhat lukewarm support for the policy proposal may not ultimately be applauded by gay activists, for reasons that go beyond what many feel about the asymmetrical nature of the arrangement.

 

I spoke to a friend who is an LDS Scouter last weekend who had an interesting perspective on the LDS's announcement, which he said has to be understood in the context of the unique relationship of the BSA and the LDS. As the BSA is the official youth activity of the LDS, it is used primarily for religious purposes, and to promote personal growth, religious education and the advancement of their young men in their priesthood. Homosexuality is still seen as disordered by the LDS religion, although they have moved towards an acceptance of a same-sex attraction in Mormons as a way to treat them with compassion and help them move towards a lifestyle in accordance with LDS teachings. (If I have misunderstood LDS teaching, I apologize and welcome any comments in correction).

 

As LDS troops tend to be largely or solely LDS, the religious component will likely be used to mentor youths with a SSA attraction (using what he described as counseling and gentle peer support, without harassment or bullying), to guide them back into a lifestyle more in accordance with LDS teachings. LDS parents will be likely support this process. I don't think this is an official policy or plan, but as my friend said, it will be the likely end-result of any change in the process.

 

This would be possible in an LDS troop, due to their official involvement with scouting, in a way that most other non-LDS troops (even religious chartered ones) would not find possible.

 

I understand that most gay activists (and non-gays who support gay activism) find the idea that a gay youth could be "changed" in his or her sexual orientation to be anathema. So this might not be exactly the end-result of LDS gay inclusion they envisioned. The LDS church will not use any new policy to change their teachings or affirm homosexuality.

 

There is some good evidence (Savin-Williams, R.C. and Ream, G.L. (2007) Prevalence and Stability of Sexual Orientation Components During Adolescence and Young Adulthood. Archives of Sexual Behavior 36, 385-394) with a very large study sample (far larger than Kinsey's, for example) that there is a high rate of movement from self-image as gay or bisexual to heterosexual within a 1-year period (age 16 to 17, in the longitudinal study) in adolescents, which continues over the next 5 years, so an LGBT orientation is by no means a fixed self-identification. Kids are always in a state of flux, and are as prone to sexual identity experimentation as any other sort of self-identification. The movement from homosexuality or bisexuality at age 16 to self-identification as heterosexual by age 17 is 25 times higher than movement from the opposite extreme (heterosexual to a homosexual or bisexual self-identification). This research could be used to support gay inclusion in the BSA, incidentally, on the evidence that many boys (and girls) who are unsure about their orientation do, in fact, "grow out of it," and that a youth program model that encourages moral rectitude without harassment or bullying could cause a greater rate of change in orientation in those with a desire to be heterosexual, or simply out of a realization that most kids who may join while identifying as "gay" are statistically unlikely to remain that way. It deserves some consideration by those who oppose inclusion of youths who self-identify as LGBT, although youth safety issues involved in inclusion will remain problematic for many adult leaders and parents.

 

Surprisingly (or maybe not), the pull towards heterosexuality remains quite strong (which an exclusively evolutionary as well as a religious model of human origin would predict), and only a small proportion of those who identify exclusively as same-sex attracted at age 16 continue to do so at age 17 (without any intervention models). A very small percentage of those who identify as heterosexual move to homosexual. A large proportion (the majority) of those who identify as bisexual at 16 move largely to exclusively heterosexual, with a small group retaining a bisexual identity and a much smaller group moving to exclusively homosexual.

 

The sexual orientation self-identification rates from the cohort from age 17 to 25 show heterosexuals continue to largely remain heterosexuals. Of those who continued to identify as bisexuals by age 17, a majority moved to heterosexuality but a larger proportion continued as bisexual than during the 1-year 16 to 17 age period. 75% of those with a full same sex attraction at 17 had moved on to heterosexuality by age 25. Females show the greatest drop from full homosexuality at 17 - very few reported full same sex attraction by age 25, although women with an initial SSA are the only group that ended as a high proportion of bisexuality (than SSA or heterosexuality) at the end of the study.

 

There are no studies showing whether a counseling model based on long-term peer-group support for adolescents in a BSA model of mentorship and a spiritually-based program focusing on positive moral values would work any better than clinically based "conversion" programs (which are very controversial), as I don't think this has ever been tried before. Use of the BSA by some troops as a "gentle" conversion program would probably not be seen as a desirable outcome by LGBT activists. Could make the kids dig in their heels more, too, but maybe not.

 

From a strictly utilitarian perspective, the CDC research shows a much higher rate of suicide and self destructive behavior in nearly every category for LGBT youth. While some have argued that this is solely the end result of low self-esteem due to bullying and societal and family disapproval, if LGBT self-identification is more flexible that those with a political agenda may have led us to believe, maybe we should try to steer youths away through the youth mentorship programs pioneered by the BSA.

 

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but it will be interesting to see what happens. I don't think National would want to touch this side-issue (religious counseling for conversion) with a 10-foot pole.

 

[moosetracker]

AZMike : "As LDS troops tend to be largely or solely LDS, the religious component will likely be used to mentor youths with a SSA attraction (using what he described as counseling and gentle peer support, without harassment or bullying), to guide them back into a lifestyle more in accordance with LDS teachings. LDS parents will be likely support this process. I don't think this is an official policy or plan, but as my friend said, it will be the likely end-result of any change in the process."

 

My DE said something like that, not refering to LDS per sey, but maybe he had heard something by them similar.. If they do then those using BSA to change someones sex orientation (gently or not) should be tossed out of BSA.. BSA is not a place for sexual matters heterosexual or homosexual in nature.. It is why homosexuals in the BSA will not be a problem, if they promote their lifestyle, they would be out, they just will be free to bring their significant other to a COH or event, same as other heterosexuals do with their partners.. Likewise if anyone within the relm of the BSA program uses it to promote a heterosexual lifestyle they equally should be kicked out of scouting.. Youth or Adult.. IT IS NOT THE PLACE. I agree with your last comment, BSA better not touch it with a 10 foot pole, except in order to eject anyone who tries to implement it..

 

As for your scientific paper, you again are holding up the rare study that confirms your belief and ignoring the millions of studies they say that you are wrong.. Didn't you just the other day state something about not putting stock in scientific studies and using common sense instead.. Yet you love to pull these rare finding, ignore the bulk of studies, as well as refuse to use common sense.. Such as could someone with a gentle push or peer pressure get you give up your attraction to females, and start being attracted to males?..

 

 

[packsaddle]

Okay, RememberSchiff's comment has been sitting here all solitary and lonely-like for a while, so I'll comment.

 

LDS's somewhat lukewarm support for the policy proposal may not ultimately be applauded by gay activists, for reasons that go beyond what many feel about the asymmetrical nature of the arrangement.

 

I spoke to a friend who is an LDS Scouter last weekend who had an interesting perspective on the LDS's announcement, which he said has to be understood in the context of the unique relationship of the BSA and the LDS. As the BSA is the official youth activity of the LDS, it is used primarily for religious purposes, and to promote personal growth, religious education and the advancement of their young men in their priesthood. Homosexuality is still seen as disordered by the LDS religion, although they have moved towards an acceptance of a same-sex attraction in Mormons as a way to treat them with compassion and help them move towards a lifestyle in accordance with LDS teachings. (If I have misunderstood LDS teaching, I apologize and welcome any comments in correction).

 

As LDS troops tend to be largely or solely LDS, the religious component will likely be used to mentor youths with a SSA attraction (using what he described as counseling and gentle peer support, without harassment or bullying), to guide them back into a lifestyle more in accordance with LDS teachings. LDS parents will be likely support this process. I don't think this is an official policy or plan, but as my friend said, it will be the likely end-result of any change in the process.

 

This would be possible in an LDS troop, due to their official involvement with scouting, in a way that most other non-LDS troops (even religious chartered ones) would not find possible.

 

I understand that most gay activists (and non-gays who support gay activism) find the idea that a gay youth could be "changed" in his or her sexual orientation to be anathema. So this might not be exactly the end-result of LDS gay inclusion they envisioned. The LDS church will not use any new policy to change their teachings or affirm homosexuality.

 

There is some good evidence (Savin-Williams, R.C. and Ream, G.L. (2007) Prevalence and Stability of Sexual Orientation Components During Adolescence and Young Adulthood. Archives of Sexual Behavior 36, 385-394) with a very large study sample (far larger than Kinsey's, for example) that there is a high rate of movement from self-image as gay or bisexual to heterosexual within a 1-year period (age 16 to 17, in the longitudinal study) in adolescents, which continues over the next 5 years, so an LGBT orientation is by no means a fixed self-identification. Kids are always in a state of flux, and are as prone to sexual identity experimentation as any other sort of self-identification. The movement from homosexuality or bisexuality at age 16 to self-identification as heterosexual by age 17 is 25 times higher than movement from the opposite extreme (heterosexual to a homosexual or bisexual self-identification). This research could be used to support gay inclusion in the BSA, incidentally, on the evidence that many boys (and girls) who are unsure about their orientation do, in fact, "grow out of it," and that a youth program model that encourages moral rectitude without harassment or bullying could cause a greater rate of change in orientation in those with a desire to be heterosexual, or simply out of a realization that most kids who may join while identifying as "gay" are statistically unlikely to remain that way. It deserves some consideration by those who oppose inclusion of youths who self-identify as LGBT, although youth safety issues involved in inclusion will remain problematic for many adult leaders and parents.

 

Surprisingly (or maybe not), the pull towards heterosexuality remains quite strong (which an exclusively evolutionary as well as a religious model of human origin would predict), and only a small proportion of those who identify exclusively as same-sex attracted at age 16 continue to do so at age 17 (without any intervention models). A very small percentage of those who identify as heterosexual move to homosexual. A large proportion (the majority) of those who identify as bisexual at 16 move largely to exclusively heterosexual, with a small group retaining a bisexual identity and a much smaller group moving to exclusively homosexual.

 

The sexual orientation self-identification rates from the cohort from age 17 to 25 show heterosexuals continue to largely remain heterosexuals. Of those who continued to identify as bisexuals by age 17, a majority moved to heterosexuality but a larger proportion continued as bisexual than during the 1-year 16 to 17 age period. 75% of those with a full same sex attraction at 17 had moved on to heterosexuality by age 25. Females show the greatest drop from full homosexuality at 17 - very few reported full same sex attraction by age 25, although women with an initial SSA are the only group that ended as a high proportion of bisexuality (than SSA or heterosexuality) at the end of the study.

 

There are no studies showing whether a counseling model based on long-term peer-group support for adolescents in a BSA model of mentorship and a spiritually-based program focusing on positive moral values would work any better than clinically based "conversion" programs (which are very controversial), as I don't think this has ever been tried before. Use of the BSA by some troops as a "gentle" conversion program would probably not be seen as a desirable outcome by LGBT activists. Could make the kids dig in their heels more, too, but maybe not.

 

From a strictly utilitarian perspective, the CDC research shows a much higher rate of suicide and self destructive behavior in nearly every category for LGBT youth. While some have argued that this is solely the end result of low self-esteem due to bullying and societal and family disapproval, if LGBT self-identification is more flexible that those with a political agenda may have led us to believe, maybe we should try to steer youths away through the youth mentorship programs pioneered by the BSA.

 

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but it will be interesting to see what happens. I don't think National would want to touch this side-issue (religious counseling for conversion) with a 10-foot pole.

I'm covered with little circular scars where girls used to dare each other to touch me with a 10-foot pole, lol.

 

So...I have some friends, a gay couple, guys. One developed a serious medical problem and he opted, in the course of things, to go ahead and complete the transsexual procedures. He is now a she and they are now....what? A gay couple? Not for anyone who meets them on the street. A heterosexual couple? By the superficial standards of BSA, I think they pass (pun intended).

If BSA and so many of BSA members are so obsessed with all this sex and gayness stuff, I'd really like to hear how they resolve this situation. The couple has adopted a set of twin boys. As far as BSA is concerned, if they show up at roundup, they're just another family. Right?

If these parents decide to apply for leadership positions, what then?

[packsaddle]

AZMike : "As LDS troops tend to be largely or solely LDS, the religious component will likely be used to mentor youths with a SSA attraction (using what he described as counseling and gentle peer support, without harassment or bullying), to guide them back into a lifestyle more in accordance with LDS teachings. LDS parents will be likely support this process. I don't think this is an official policy or plan, but as my friend said, it will be the likely end-result of any change in the process."

 

My DE said something like that, not refering to LDS per sey, but maybe he had heard something by them similar.. If they do then those using BSA to change someones sex orientation (gently or not) should be tossed out of BSA.. BSA is not a place for sexual matters heterosexual or homosexual in nature.. It is why homosexuals in the BSA will not be a problem, if they promote their lifestyle, they would be out, they just will be free to bring their significant other to a COH or event, same as other heterosexuals do with their partners.. Likewise if anyone within the relm of the BSA program uses it to promote a heterosexual lifestyle they equally should be kicked out of scouting.. Youth or Adult.. IT IS NOT THE PLACE. I agree with your last comment, BSA better not touch it with a 10 foot pole, except in order to eject anyone who tries to implement it..

 

As for your scientific paper, you again are holding up the rare study that confirms your belief and ignoring the millions of studies they say that you are wrong.. Didn't you just the other day state something about not putting stock in scientific studies and using common sense instead.. Yet you love to pull these rare finding, ignore the bulk of studies, as well as refuse to use common sense.. Such as could someone with a gentle push or peer pressure get you give up your attraction to females, and start being attracted to males?..

 

Moosetracker, it is incumbent on you now to provide references to those millions of studies that contradict him. It would be helpful if you summarized one or two of the best of them in the same manner that he did.

[AZMike]

AZMike : "As LDS troops tend to be largely or solely LDS, the religious component will likely be used to mentor youths with a SSA attraction (using what he described as counseling and gentle peer support, without harassment or bullying), to guide them back into a lifestyle more in accordance with LDS teachings. LDS parents will be likely support this process. I don't think this is an official policy or plan, but as my friend said, it will be the likely end-result of any change in the process."

 

My DE said something like that, not refering to LDS per sey, but maybe he had heard something by them similar.. If they do then those using BSA to change someones sex orientation (gently or not) should be tossed out of BSA.. BSA is not a place for sexual matters heterosexual or homosexual in nature.. It is why homosexuals in the BSA will not be a problem, if they promote their lifestyle, they would be out, they just will be free to bring their significant other to a COH or event, same as other heterosexuals do with their partners.. Likewise if anyone within the relm of the BSA program uses it to promote a heterosexual lifestyle they equally should be kicked out of scouting.. Youth or Adult.. IT IS NOT THE PLACE. I agree with your last comment, BSA better not touch it with a 10 foot pole, except in order to eject anyone who tries to implement it..

 

As for your scientific paper, you again are holding up the rare study that confirms your belief and ignoring the millions of studies they say that you are wrong.. Didn't you just the other day state something about not putting stock in scientific studies and using common sense instead.. Yet you love to pull these rare finding, ignore the bulk of studies, as well as refuse to use common sense.. Such as could someone with a gentle push or peer pressure get you give up your attraction to females, and start being attracted to males?..

 

So this study more or less supports your position. Why do you have a problem with it, Moosetracker?

 

If the BSA is used by LDS troops to support their teachings (again, they have a unique relationship with the BSA), how is that the business of the BSA any more than if they modify summer camp schedules, camping times, prayers, etc. to fit their beliefs? Presumably, they wouldn't do it with anyone outside LDS. People go into the LDS knowing what their stance on homosexual behavior is.

 

I'd also like to see some cites for the "millions" of studies you claim show that a SSA in adolescence is fixed and immutable over time.

 

Not all studies are equal, obviously, but this comes from an unbiased source, is frequently cited in other studies, and used a very large sample population. If we want to base our decision on facts rather than feelings, we have to evaluate the facts we can.

 

If heterosexuality is the baseline (and if it wasn't t, we would not have survived as a species), questions about whether an adult with a fully formed sexual orientation could be nudged from heterosexuality to homosexuality are irrelevant. Adolescent behavior (which is what we are discussing) is far more mutable.

[moosetracker]

I never said studies on BSA, I pointed to your study on Savin-Williams, R.C. and Ream, G.L. study, which was not a study on the behaviors of BSA scouts.. The other topic on using BSA as a training of the youth in their for sexual behavior is simply a YPT matter.. YPT is something you don't muck with.. I never said some cult can come create a troop by which they can molest youth and it is perfectly fine.. If a person heterosexual, homosexual, man, woman or child sexually abused another youth in scouts, or were found to be grooming them they are out of the program.. A homosexual would not be able to "convert" children to his lifestyle as you fear, because it is should not be a topic of discussion.. A heterosexual should not try to convert either on sexual matter.. or take their youth out to sexual orientation training camps or whatever..

 

BSA is to be used to train boys in outdoor skills, leadership skills etc..

 

I have already stated that children do sexual exploration in other posts, but there is a difference between sexual exploration and sexual orientation.. Those who are just expirementing are having fun and rebelling against authority, and saying things to get a rise out of the older establishment.. If your researches want to call them settling into a normal life a victory, Whoopie, children grow up and grow out of their wild and crazy youth phase, most will grow out of drugs and alcohole, and jumping off of rooftops also.. In that respect I will accept that your reseach findings.. But those whose sexual orientation is set it is set, as firmly as your sexual orientation is set within you.

[ghjim]

Did the Savin-Williams study involve people who declared themselves to be bisexual? I do believe those types of people often settle into either a heterosexual or homosexual lifestyle at some point in their life. I can see such a person eventually driven to a heterosexual lifestyle by societal, family or religious pressure.

 

But every single gay person I know (more than a few) have told me they always knew they were gay, there was never any doubt. Which has always made sense to me as I always knew I wasn't.

[ghjim]

Did the Savin-Williams study involve people who declared themselves to be bisexual? I do believe those types of people often settle into either a heterosexual or homosexual lifestyle at some point in their life. I can see such a person eventually driven to a heterosexual lifestyle by societal, family or religious pressure.

 

But every single gay person I know (more than a few) have told me they always knew they were gay, there was never any doubt. Which has always made sense to me as I always knew I wasn't.

Here are some interesting comments from the American Psychological Association:

 

"...no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

 

"All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective."

 

 

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

[packsaddle]

ghjim, "...I always knew I wasn't".

LOL, there was a thread many years ago in which we were invited to describe the moment we 'knew' we were heterosexual. Many of the responses naturally invoked various beautiful women (Barbara Eden comes to my mind) but my response was that I knew I was heterosexual the first time I saw a picture of Richard Boone...yuk, yuk, yuk. Regarding the APA lack of evidence of pretty much anything and everything, the sad thing about that ignorance is that it leaves us vulnerable to our prejudices. On the other hand good solid prejudice should be able to withstand even the best evidence. Maybe the membership policy is going to remain the way it is after all......sigh.

[Gone]

...........

[/url=http://gifs.gifbin.com/3204840swsw.gif]

[moosetracker]

Cute mozart - But this I think is a new discussion, if beside soccer scouting and other non-scouting like ventures, BSA should wade into quake like psychological therapy.. I mean we all have our various opinions of psychologists, but I would no more want a shoe salesmen or bus driver (or whatever occupation your SM is in) doing psycho-therapy on my children, along with a whole gaggle of quack 12 to 18 yo's on my child.. Guarenteed to do more harm then good, and in 5 tp 10 years BSA can have another flock of lawsuits on their hands over it, as these kids mature and sues the pants off of them.

 

If LDS wants to go into quack psychology, don't do it under the BSA label, just do it under the LDS label, after all they direct their congregation with a tight leash, just have them drag that little homo boy into a faith service so the whole congregation can "gently" play doctor on him.. Leave BSA out of it.

[AZMike]

Did the Savin-Williams study involve people who declared themselves to be bisexual? I do believe those types of people often settle into either a heterosexual or homosexual lifestyle at some point in their life. I can see such a person eventually driven to a heterosexual lifestyle by societal, family or religious pressure.

 

But every single gay person I know (more than a few) have told me they always knew they were gay, there was never any doubt. Which has always made sense to me as I always knew I wasn't.

Yeah, the study addresses bisexuals. Both bisexuality and homosexuality as self-descriptions in adolescents are remarkably unstable compared to a heterosexual self-description.

 

On your second point, it makes sense that gay people (that is, those with a strong identification as homosexual) have "always" known they were gay, just as those with a strong heterosexual self-identification do. It also makes sense that people who experimented or were unsure when young what their orientation was, but eventually realized they were heterosexual would be much less likely to share that information openly out of embarrassment, right?

 

Many of the people you know who experimented with homosexual acts might not feel comfortable sharing that info, so there is likely to be a lot of inaccurate self-reporting in this area.

[Gone]

Cute mozart - But this I think is a new discussion, if beside soccer scouting and other non-scouting like ventures, BSA should wade into quake like psychological therapy.. I mean we all have our various opinions of psychologists, but I would no more want a shoe salesmen or bus driver (or whatever occupation your SM is in) doing psycho-therapy on my children, along with a whole gaggle of quack 12 to 18 yo's on my child.. Guarenteed to do more harm then good, and in 5 tp 10 years BSA can have another flock of lawsuits on their hands over it, as these kids mature and sues the pants off of them.

 

If LDS wants to go into quack psychology, don't do it under the BSA label, just do it under the LDS label, after all they direct their congregation with a tight leash, just have them drag that little homo boy into a faith service so the whole congregation can "gently" play doctor on him.. Leave BSA out of it.

We play counselor all the time. That's in the role description. It's when we uncover a serious issue we escalate it and talk to the parents and encourage them to get their kid help.

 

When I read the last several posts I had to shake my head. Why can't we just keep scouting about scouting and leave all the armchair psychoanalysis to the pros. I don't know, or do I care, when I knew I was hetero. Nor do I care if a kid is gay. I just want to camp, canoe, hike and cook. The rest of this is moot to me.

[acco40]

I don't recall the time I realized my sexual orientation but I do remember watching television with my four year old. The most censoring that I did with my son was during the news. I really didn't want him to see explicit "real" violence. One day, they were starting to show something about a bombing or something in Israel and I decided to turn the channel (I didn't have cable at the time). I came upon Entertainment Tonight or some such drivel and they showed some starlet in a bikini. I changed the channel about ten seconds later andall of sudden my son asked me to go back to Entertainment Tonight. His exact words to me were, "I like that but I don't know why."

 

 

Most respected psychologists believe that we are all on a sexual spectrum. No one is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual. Certain environments will influence our behavior - sexual and other. For example, usually in single sex environments (prisons, castaways, etc.) sexual activity does not cease.