BSA National leadership or lack of and the local option

[Beavah]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

Yah, I reckon in the end da change costs us 25% of our membership when all is said and done. Maybe a bit less if public opposition is light; maybe more if opposition is organized and coordinated among major partners. Blow will fall heavier in areas where da BSA has been strong, but won't significantly improve membership in da areas where da BSA has been weak. With stresses on so many councils and camps already, figure yeh see a 50% retrenchment in those areas in terms of loss of camps and council consolidations. Won't kill us outright, eh? Just be a part of da long slow twilight years that are occurrin' for da other reasons yeh mention.

[moosetracker]

Keep in mind that even now, the BSA policy does not encourage gay or heterosexual members to "flaunt" their sexuality - that is not what the program is all about. If the BSA goes to a local option, I don't see any issue at all with camporees or "mixing" of units that may have different membership standards.

 

Right now, many units do not allow female leaders of troops (SMs & SAs). Those units don't have an issue mingling with troops that do. Why should this be any different?

I think dcsimmons is more afraid of showering with "those gays guys" himself (adult leaders with adult leaders).. Only trouble is, he already does, it is just they are there but having to be more quiet about their sexual preferences.. Sort of the idea that being ignorant, means you can "pretend" you are in a "gay free" zone..

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Dale decision still stands, private groups can set their own leadership and membership standards. I don't forsee any troop getting sued.

Beavah, today, there aren't supposed to BE any organizations that can't discriminate in all the ways the BSA discriminates for their particular unit, so the local option changes nothing. If organization X can't discriminate after the local option, it couldn't have discriminated before the local option either, and could face a lawsuit in either case.

[ghjim]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

I keep hearing that today's BSA has a "watered-down" camping and outdoor program. Not being a current member I wouldn't know. But I can say that Philmont is going very strong, much stronger than in the 1970s.

I would think if there is any litmus test of the veracity of the BSA's outdoor program it would be the participation at Philmont.

[AZMike]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

Beavah's estimate sounds about right. I'd say 25% to 35% initial drop in membership, followed by a slower gradual decline in membership over the years to the point of irrelevance to society. If there are couple of significant publicized cases of molestation by gay scout leaders or by gay scouts, you'll see the same rapid decline the child abuse scandal caused the Catholic Church in the past decades. No parent will trust the BSA with their son again. No one will shoulder any blame, either.

[ghjim]

I think this idea is being explored in a number of other threads. However your questions are still good.

 

As has been brought up before the BSA is now in a no-win position where there is no answer that will please everybody.

 

I still think the local option is the best solution. I don't think the BSA can continue being exclusive, not when it appears that two thirds of the

councils don't want it that way. And I don't think you can force a CO to accept members they don't want.

 

There will be people who will stomp off but I am agreeing with some of the other posters here that there won't be very many.

There will be troops that will avoid each other but overall I am really thinking this is going to settle down, and fairly quickly.

The two thirds figure was provided by Lodge489 in a previous post. I think it was under "Boy Scouts close to ending ban on gay members, leaders NBC". I can't find it now because I can't search through all the posts in that topic, one of the bugs in this new software. He states he got the information from a member of the executive council.

[Twocubdad]

Only one of four of my post make it in the discussion, so wish me luck.

 

I'm glad to see folks glass have full that this will turn out to not be a big deal and will brush over quickly. However, history is different, No youth scouting program has recovered to the level of memebership and funding they had before accepting gay role models.

 

Also, I think folks are burning out on the political corrections wars in general. Politics is in every part of our lives now and we are being bombarded by media and politicians on who to hate and who to like. Cultural wars are at the highest level ever in the US. People are tired of it and the real scouting discussions on this forum (or lack of) kind of supports that.

 

I don't see how the BSA can make the switch to accepting gays in any form without changing youth protection policies. As much as folks say it's not about sex, it will quickly become about sex the first time a scout molest another scout. And don't say it wont happen, it has already happened many times, it just wasn't under the context of homosexuality.

 

Then there is the logical perspective. Ever since the BSA has accepted women as leaders, the majority of new leaders have been adults without a youth scouting experience. I'm guessing no more than 25 percent of new adult leaders today where boy scouts as a youth. So I am asking you folks of wisdom, why would a parent who has nothing invested in scouting want to put up with the hassle of scouting? I think it was tough before, but now it has such a stigma to it that I'm wondering who needs it. Soccer is a lot easier.

 

Maybe it was inevitable, but we are watching the decline of true scouting and whatever replaces the void will not be a values program and barely an outdoors program. It will take it a little while, but scouting is going to turn into a urban focused program like the YMCA and even the Girl scouts designed more as just a place for youth to gather without program intended to improve the individual. Pack gives a quote that for him is profound, "Religion was not intended to bring people together". Well scouting is the same. It is a values program intended to develop the individual just like religion. The self-serving actions of religion and scouting naturally bring people together because the motivation of individual are selfless. The YMCA was the exact same kind of program before it started getting away from its religious foundation and ideals. Now it's just a place for the youth to meet socially. It has no noble vision or mission for the youth that it serves.

 

So I'm not a confident about the present program as many here, I think we adults are very self serving and ran scoutingt into the ground. National didn't bungle it up, we did. You don't have to read very many post to see the condesending tone and hatred of the discussions toward each other. Not scoutlike, but nobody seems to care. We want everything and were willing to tear each other down hoping we would be the one left standing after the smoke cleared. We gave up our dignity for the gold ring. We were, and many still are willing to give up our virtues hoping the new world order would favor our own way of thinking. NJ keeps saying "do the right thing". Takes a lot of pride to think our way IS the best way. Nowhere does the Scout oath or law demand that our way IS the only way. There can be no concensus of peace without humility. The actions in the Scout Oath and Law require humility to be effective. There is no humilty in demanding the right thing. That might come in the new Scouting program. As for me and my sons, we are the lucky ones. We experienced the true vision of scoutings.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

It will sure complicate the shower schedule:

 

Male Youth

Female Youth

Gay Youth

Lesbian Youth

Straight Male Adults

Straight Female Adults

Gay Adults

Lesbian Adults.

 

Everyone gets 19 seconds in the shower.

 

(Where are the little smilies on this new software)

[Eagledad]

Twocubdad, until we get this politico correctness thing figured out, a gentleman will insist the adult gay lesbians go first. But just for 19 seconds like everyone else.

 

Barry

[moosetracker]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

What?? The molestation by our past straight scout leaders where BSA's records has now been opened up to public isn't something that is hurting BSA's image, but one single act by a gay scout leader in the future will have them running for the hills??? Huh! I didn't know that it mattered "who" molested the children.. If your straight that's not too bad, just don't be gay...

[AZMike]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

Those male scout leaders who molested boys weren't "straight," moosetracker. Straight men don't have sex with other men. They were liars. And homosexuals. And pederasts.

[AZMike]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

It's interesting that most liberals believe that once you're homosexual, you can't change to heterosexual, and no therapist should be allowed to try to change you, and it should be illegal to run a counseling program that claims to be able to change you...until you molest a boy. THEN you instantly and magically become "straight."

[moosetracker]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

Boys are not men, AZMike.. You are very wrong that all pedophiles of boys must be homosexual or they would not be interested in boys. This is very, very flawed logic that not even scientists who attempt to prove homosexuals are more likely to... will wander into..

 

Pedophiles are not interested in sex, they are not aroused by sex.. They are aroused by control and power over someone weaker then they are..

 

I do not believe you can convert homsexuals by forcing them into therapy, but I do feel that people can change.. Sometimes homosexuality in young people is no more the sexual experimentation.. Sometimes people are bi-sexual, and yet when they truely fall in love they can make a commitment, this could be to a heterosexual partner or a homosexual partner.. But, some people simply are not and can not be heterosexual.. And forcing them into therapy does more harm then good, especially threrapy that has been uncovered to be either torturous or does damage to their self-esteem. Either the person needs to choose the path for themselves or it is just counter-productive.

[moosetracker]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

clarification to my comment about no scientists will state all pedophiles of boys are homosexual - I meant respected scientists.. I am sure you could wrestle up names of some quacks that no one but the homophobic would take seriously.

 

Strange.. I wanted to edit my original post, but although it let me try to edit, the changes would not take.. Tried 3 times..

[AZMike]

You know all of this speculation is interesting but is strictly individual opinions and not much else. All of us will have to wait until the decision is made and has been in effect for a while before you can draw any factual conclusions. At the rate National moves it may be another year before they actually make their final decision.

 

Barry, come on now, you really think that this will really destroy the BSA, I rather doubt it, besides the deemphasizing of the outdoor program and skills started in the 70's had already started that process and the watered down program of today is the main reason so many scout packs, troops and crews have lost membership, along with incompetently run councils by incompetent professional scouters who lack any kind of ethical or moral work ethic.

moosetracker, please see my response to why "pedophilia" is too broad a term to describe men who have sex with boys in the thread on "Practical Problems." It's too long to repeat here. The correct term for adult males who want to have sex with boys is pederasty, and it is exclusively homosexual.

 

The strange argument you are attempting to make is that a group of males you arbitrarily draw a line around and define as "homosexual" or "gay" includes only those who do not want to have sex with male adolescents, so anything outside your semantic definition must be "heterosexual" or "straight," or a third group that practices homosexual acts (mostly sodomy) but can no longer be described as homosexual. You're doing violence to the English language when you try to do that. Heterosexual males do not have sex with other males, by definition. You are talking about homosexual or bisexual (the "B" in "LGBT") behavior, as defined by the dictionary and common use. There is a perfectly good word that described adult males who want to have sex with adolescent males, "pederasts." The practice of homosexual acts between an adult male and an adolescent, pubescent, or post-pubescent males is "pederasty." It is used by the gay community (some of whom celebrate its practice, both historically and currently), so why not use it when describing who is most at risk to try to molest a scout?

 

You are using the self-definitions of people who are lying to you. If someone is claiming to be "straight" or "heterosexual," but they are practicing homosexual or bisexual behavior, why would you accept their self-description? Behavior is the truth, not what someone claims to be.

 

 

I can't make any sense out of what "This is very, very flawed logic that not even scientists who attempt to prove homosexuals are more likely to... will wander into.." Maybe its because of the new software.

[AZMike]

moosetracker wrote: "Pedophiles are not interested in sex, they are not aroused by sex.. They are aroused by control and power over someone weaker then they are."

 

You are partly right, but it's too broad to say a sex offender is not aroused by sex. Control and power expressed through sex, perhaps. What you are describing is actually the opposite end of the continuum for sex offenders, non-preferential sex offenders, who tend to be more violent, have more varied and extensive criminal histories, and are often bisexual in their victim preference.The pederastic (or pedophilic, if we use your term) side is preferential. As all human behavior tends to exist on a continuum, it's not a binary choice and offenders can share characteristics from each group. Those on the preferential end of the continuum tend to have very specific victim preferences and will likely be exclusively homosexual or homosexual. The first is impulsive, the second is compulsive. The first will usually be weeded out by even the minimal background checks the BSA does, the second group (pederasts) are less likely to have a criminal history and more likely to be accepted as a scout leader, even if openly "gay" under the proposed New Model of Scouting.