What do I do with an adult that isn't a leader but continually interferes?

[buffalo2]

Say that again Dan - sounds like the problem is a little more widespread?

And satisfying as it might be to visualize some of these more extreme treatments of clueless adults, are we sure that this is a good example to place before our youth? Even joking around, we can send the wrong signals...

We've all got these adults to deal with, give it the best that you can and move on

Hang in there SPLT15 - things can only improve!

[buffalo2]

Say that again Dan - sounds like the problem is a little more widespread?

And satisfying as it might be to visualize some of these more extreme treatments of clueless adults, are we sure that this is a good example to place before our youth? Even joking around, we can send the wrong signals...

We've all got these adults to deal with, give it the best that you can and move on

Hang in there SPLT15 - things can only improve!

[buffalo2]

Say that again Dan - sounds like the problem is a little more widespread?

And satisfying as it might be to visualize some of these more extreme treatments of clueless adults, are we sure that this is a good example to place before our youth? Even joking around, we can send the wrong signals...

We've all got these adults to deal with, give it the best that you can and move on

Hang in there SPLT15 - things can only improve!

[Rooster7]

Why wouldn't an ASM be allowed at a PLC? Isn't he supposed to know how the troop is run? Doesn't he stand in for the SM when he's not available? Whatever your position is on adults at a PLC, I think if the SM is there, then his ASMs should be there as well. The ASMs need to be aware of troop events and be familiar with the boys as well as the SM. Otherwise, when your SM is not available, there is no one ready and able to take his place.

[dan]

What would an ASM need to know from the PLC?

The ASM could see the scheudle the PLC created for the meeting/campouts.

Now I would like to know what has been discussed or decided, I usually ask my son, but I do not get much info from him.

In my sons troop only the SM, is at the PLC meeting. Sometimes ASM or CM scheudle time with the PLC to discuss something, but they only stay for that part of the meeting.

What am I missing?

 

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster, I don't think there is anything wrong with one ASM joining the SM at a PLC, as long as he/she doesn't say anything except in an "emergency." Beyond that, I think the more adults that are present at a PLC, the greater the likelihood that the boys start getting a bit of "stage fright" or feeling overwhelmed, and start deferring to the adults. That isn't the point of the PLC. Also, the more adults you have in the room, the greater chance of having one who will not "know their place" and start interfering.

 

The rest of the ASMs can get their awareness of what is going on when the SM tells them what has been decided at the PLC meeting -- the same way the troop committee receives this information. As for getting to know the boys, the ASMs see the boys "in action" at troop meetings, campouts and other events. If there is a particular issue with the interaction of boys in the PLC, or with any particular boy leader, the SM can inform the ASMs, so that if they are called in to attend in the SM's absence, they will know what to expect. In other words I think that any "need" that would have the result of putting a crowd of adults in the room should be handled in some other manner, whenever possible.

 

I also agree with those who have said that in this case, the SM placed SPL into a situation that he should not have placed him in, but once that occurred, the SPL acted properly. The SM placed the SPL in what is really an adult role, dealing with a meddlesome parent who is the spouse of a leader. When push came to shove, the one adult leader in the room (the meddlesome parent's husband) did not do his job, so the boy did it, as he was instructed to do. At least that is what appears from the SPL's posts. It sounds like the only other alternative to confronting the parent was to basically allow her to run the PLC meeting, and that is not acceptable.

[NJCubScouter]

I would also add that "respect" works both ways. The boys should respect the adults, but the adults also should have respect for the role of the boy leaders in the troop. Apparently this particular parent showed complete disrespect both for the role of the boy leaders AND the adult leaders, since (as the facts have been reported) she was apparently trying to play the role of both, and doing it badly. Normally, the responsibilty for "enforcing" the respect to be shown the role of the boy leaders is carried out by the SM or ASM. The fact that the SM abdicated this responsibility to the SPL didn't mean it shouldn't be carried out.

[Adrianvs]

"When I think of a Scout, I see a boy (actually, I hope to see a young man), who refuses to be enticed or bullied into striking out. I see a young man who is respectful towards adults even when one of those adults may be acting like a horses rear end."

 

This is very true, but we shouldn't forget that the same thing should be expected of an adult. When any scout becomes an adult, he should be respectful towards adults even when one of them is acting like a horse's rear end. The respect that youths should show adults doesn't prevent them from asking a troublesome adult from leaving a meeting any more than the respect that adults should have for adults would prevent them from asking the intruder to leave. One may disagree that it is ever the place for a youth to reprimand an adult, but it has little to do with respect. There are tyrant adults who need to be stood up to and it should be the moral and ethical guidelines of the youth that determine when that is acceptable.

Of course, I do not know exactly how you handled the situation when you "told her to excuse herself from our meeting," but simply the fact that you are a youth and she is not does not make your actions wrong. I tend to believe that you did the right thing, although the scoutmaster should have handled the situation before it could have happened. If she is not a registered scouter, then she should not have been staying at a resident camp in the first place. As far as regular troop functions go, visitors should be silent and respectful (within reason, of course). In youth sporting activities, parents sometimes harrass the adult staffers, but they never go out onto the field and confront the players directly. In scouting, it seems the opposite. I consider this a carry-over from the Cub Scouting model. Parents of Boy Scouts (and some Scouters)need to be briefed on the differences between the two programs.

 

SPL_T15: If you handled the situation with tact and respect, then you did the right thing. If you didn't, you won't be faulted by me for I have been known to share the same weakness. Consider it a learning experience in leading with respect and courtesy.

[Rooster7]

Adrianvs,

 

Of course, I do not know exactly how you handled the situation when you "told her to excuse herself from our meeting," but simply the fact that you are a youth and she is not does not make your actions wrong.

 

I know I'm being stubborn here (so what's new), but I still cannot stomach this idea. I believe that this one of our society's great ills. We've empowered our children to the point that they feel there are times when they can treat adults like equals, or worse -subordinates. It is always inappropriate to place a boy (I don't care if he's 17 or 7) in a position where he feels he has to be contrary to an adult. If we were discussing a safety issue, I would change my tune. But that was not the case. I believe Senior_Patrol_Leader's actions were only appropriate because his SM put him in that position and gave him specific directions to act as he did. Otherwise, I stand by my previous posts. I hope Senior_Patrol_Leader and other boys see the wisdom and honor in using restraint and diplomacy - especially when dealing with their elders. The SPL is the leader of the boys, not the parents or any other adult. If he's confronted with a difficult adult, he should defer that person to the SM or the troop committee. He should not try to "handle" the adult himself.

[Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15]

Again thank you all,

 

I guess I now should explain the full story in details so this should be a long one....

 

Well, it a couple of weeks before our summercamp to Washingotn D.C., and they needed some drivers, and hust drivers, so they came up with three, the ASM, the CS(Committee Secretary), and the CT(Committee Treasurer). Well, the ASM's wife decided that this could be her "free vacation", and just so they didn't have to listen about her complain about not be let to go, they let her come. And if they had any arguments she said they needed a navigater.

 

Long story up there short, 15 near wreck, 18 flip offs, 8 times lost from SM, 25 someodd extra bathroom stops(just for the ASM, the lady and their son).

 

When it came time on Wednesday to check over our schedule for the rest of the trip, the SM had to check on our food spplies and get some more things reserved. So the PLC cosisted of the ASM, myself, and the PL. Well, the lady followed us to where we were going to have our PLC and the ASM didn't even ask her to leave. So, we started the PLC, and she stayed and I had no problem with her staying. Then we came to something we were just checking back up on, and that everyone had already voted on, and she butes in saying that we don't need to do that, and that we wern't, after she got finished, I continued as if I had'nt heard her remarks, and she buts in again. This time I do as I was instructed to do. She startes yelling, I ask her if we could talk about her disbeleiving I shouldnt be SPL and her son should have my position after the PLC was over, and then the ASM doesn't do anything. She continues yelling and I tell her that she needs to excuse herself from the PLC, since it was for the Patrol Leaders and SM or ASM. Then the ASM startes yeling at me and telling me that he'll get me kcked out for holloring at his wife and he will move his son up to my position. Well, the SM is back by now and hears us and stops us and tells me and the ASM to continue our meeting with him. We finish it and the ASM is told to keep his wife out of PLC's and that he should've stoped her when she started. Well, when I get back she is crying with her son and the Patrol Leader and the Scribe want to talk with me outside. We go outside and they tell me what all she did after she was told to leave the PLC. The rest is history. By the way, the reason she told that her son would be moved up is because her is Quartermaster and that's right under SPL, so I had to explain to the boy what his position was since he had beed brainwashed into believing that he had the right to give out jobs and run the meeting.

 

 

Sorry, this is so long.

[evmori]

What a mess! I think you handled things well. It seems the other adult leaders didn't od such a good job. This should have never gotten this far.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

SPLT15

I am sorry,I said I was going to look up something for you last night, about what either the handbook or the SM handbook said about attencdance at the PLC meeting. I will try to do that tonight.

[buffalo2]

SPLT15 - I can just picture that PLC meeting, and think that you did well just to survive much less get anything accomplished... We've had occasional hints at a much milder form of this from time to time, and as a result ALL of the adults stay out of our PLCs. The SM kicks it off with a quick reminder of calendar items and last-minute changes, and then wanders off. Our SPL runs his meeting and takes care of business on his own, sometimes with less than perfect results.

 

We ASMs deliberately stay out of it but will occasionally stick our heads in the door to look over someone's notes or field a question, rarely do we hang around long enough to attract curious parents etc. Usually a quick review of one of the older PL's notes suffices to keep us current, and the SPL and SM have their own review.

 

Not always the smoothest and most efficient way to operate, but gets it done for us. The PLC is perfectly clear on who is running THEIR Troop...

And I seem to recall that that's important?

[JimmyD]

SPLT15 you did the right thing no doubt.

 

Reminds me of a time i had an issue with the Troop Commitee Treasure. In short she was delt with by another TC.

[NeilLup]

Hello SPL T15,

 

You did very, very well with a difficult situation. I might only disagree with one item of naming which in no way changes the situation.

 

To me, a PLC is a rather formal thing. It is scheduled in advance, may have an agenda, has the patrol leaders SPL, etc. there together with the SM, etc. It doesn't happen on the spur of the moment unless the SM or SPL call it rather formally, for example, to handle a disciplinary matter.

 

What you had on your trip was, if you will, a meeting of the trip leaders. You, as SPL, are certainly entitled to talk to the SM or any of the ASMs at any time that you reasonably choose. This is part of the help and counsel you can expect to get at the boy SPL of a Troop. You can bring a PL into this meeting if you choose. You can and should be able to talk in private with these people to help you do a better job and to decide on the tactical issues of a trip, like when to stop, where to have dinner, disciplinary problems, etc. (Assuming, of course, that youth protection rules are followed.) But this really doesn't, to me, have anything to do about who can or cannot attend a formal PLC. This kind of meeting is much more fluid and there really are no "rules" other than the Scout Oath and Law.

 

I would hope that if, in a case like this, you (or anyone) would say "May I please talk with Mr. XXXX now." it would be honored. Even in a PLC, I could imagine situations where a PL or the SPL would ask to step out for a moment to talk with the SM or with an ASM, then return. It is that kind of private discussion which common courtesy demands be honored. Then when the discussion is over, the meeting can be expanded if desired. It's a little like the referees in a football game getting together to discuss a play and holding all the players away. Then, when they have decided what they will do, they inform the players and the coaches.

 

Perhaps by calling it a PLC, your ability to deal with this woman was strengthened and, if so, that's fine. But it sounds to me as if her level of discourtesy was even somewhat greater than originally suggested. Of course, the fact that (as I understand it) it was her husband who was the ASM in the discussion might have made her feel a bit more free to participate.