Dumb or Lazy?

[Eamonn]

As most of the regulars in this forum are aware, I like to think that I'm active in this great organization.

As a family we are all involved and have had a long relationship with Scouts and Scouting.

Her Who Must Be Obeyed, my wife Jamie is the fruit of parents who both earned the District Award Of Merit and her brother is an Eagle Scout.

Jamie, is not a great lover of kids and has been heard to say that spending time with a group of kids would drive her nuts.

So maybe it is a good thing that OJ (Oliver James) is an only child.

He seems to be just a run of the mill ordinary kid. He gets into his fair share of hot water and at times does stuff that makes me so darn proud.

He is a Scout.

He enjoys being a Scout.

At times he doesn't like some of the activities and things that his troop are doing. So now that he is older (15) I let him decide if he is going to participate or sit this one out.

He is very close to becoming an Eagle Scout. All the merit badges are in order, he is active as the Quatermaster of his troop.

But he has come to a halt.

As far as earning his Eagle goes. Nothing is happening.

My opinion is that it is his Eagle.

He will complete it if and when he is ready.

Then again he may opt not to complete it.

After all it is his.

Not mine or anyone elses.

As I meet people who know OJ, they tell me that I ought to give him a push.

I try to explain where I'm coming from.

There is at times a lack of understanding.

They inform me about the money that is out there from scholarships and how dumb I am for not giving him a little push.

Then there are others who think that both he and I are just lazy. Him for not doing it and me for not making him do it.

If he does complete it will I be proud?

You bet your cotton socks that I will be.

But I'm proud of him every day.

I love him.

I'm proud of the kids that he "Hangs" with most are also Scouts.

Scouting has given him so much. He knows that and has plans to do a lot of stuff.

Will becoming an Eagle Scout change that?

I don't think so.

It might be the icing on the cake, but all the other stuff that went into the cake and the making of it, so far have been really good.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

Hi Eamonn, check your private message address.

Bob White

[frank10]

He may well be neither dumb nor lazy. The ranks in scouting are just one way of tracking what he is getting out of and putting into the program. Earning his Eagle would be great but it may not be what he is looking for right now. (or ever.)

 

To me the real problem if he isn't working on Eagle what is he doing to grow with in scouting. Each scout in our troop is invited to a mini BOR every six months if he has not advanced. This extra BOR does not mean that the boy is doing anything wrong at all. It is chat with the young man to find out if the troop is providing for his needs and a chance for the scout to express what his goals are for the next six months. In many cases it is to advance in rank but it may not be. They are his goals and only he can set them but by laying them out he has a chance to look them over and come up with a plan to achive them.

 

Maybe something like this could help OJ determin what he wants from scouting. It may also help the adults see what is important to him rather than forcing thier point of view on him.

[dsteele]

Eamonn:

 

I know you, but don't really know OJ. But I believe neither one of you is either dumb or lazy.

 

Does OJ respect your Assistant Scout Executive, District Executive or any other Eagle Scout? Perhaps you could cause a little pressure to come from them. I believe that your role in OJ finishin his Eagle is done. At this point you'll do more harm than good if you put pressure on him. Assistance is one thing, but he should seek it rather than have it forced on him directly from you.

 

Sometimes a trusted thrid party can make all the difference.

 

Dave

[ozemu]

Show him your post.

 

Its OJs decision and it will help him whichever way he goes to know what you are thinking.

 

As a dad I understand your wanting him to finish the job but he may be feeling overwhelmed by being so close to milestone. I agree that it is his decision. I just hope that I can say the things that you have to my son when his time comes. I think Ill go and practice right now....

[saltheart]

I have two sons. Both of them were in the troop while I was the SM. One made it to Eagle, but not because I was the SM. The other found interests and opportunities just as worthwhile and challenging and did not. I found it especially difficult, but I was able to treat them as I did the others who were not my kin. If they really wanted the Eagle, They would strive to get it.

 

There can be a big difference between 'giving a push', and simple encouragement. Kids have an inate ability to distinguish between pushing and encouragement. Pushing, they resent. Encouragement, they may listen to (keyword is 'may'). With most kids, 'lazy and dumb' is not part of the equation. Their interests lie elsewhere for a time. Their energies may be spent elsewhere. It can often be the energies of our own interests and desires to see them earn the Eagle that drives us to 'push'. That is not always to the benefit of anyone involved.

 

It would seem that the trail you walk is right one. If he earns the Eagle, he will be richer for it. But if not, he will not be poorer.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

[NeilLup]

You have received some extremely wise counsel. The final line of Saltheart's post is exceedingly wise.

 

One of the most difficult thing that a parent has to do is sit back when their child makes choices other than those that the parent would choose or prefer. Most of us who are parents have bitemarks on our tongues from that.

 

We have no sons and only one daughter. She was on staff of our council's summer camp one summer and the next summer, was invited to be a Philmont ranger. This was an opportunity that, as a boy, I would have killed for. She turned it down saying "Dad, that's your thing and not mine." Now, over a decade later, knowing what she did that summer, I can say that her decision was very wise, but it broke my heart at the time.

 

Advancement is not an aim of Scouting. It is a method and only one method. Because it is the most tangible method and most publicly acknowledged, many people and certainly many parents feel that only if one has been an Eagle Scout has one's Scouting time been successful. Not so.

 

I recently was at a meeting in a conversation with 3 individuals. One had recently been elected a Regional President in the BSA and owned a very successful communication company. The second was a member of the National Advisory Council of the BSA and is a management and training consultant to major companies. The third is an Admiral in the Navy, on the National Boy Scouting Committee and a high level leader on the Jamboree staff. All of them love Scouting and for them, it is a major commitment of their adult life. All three, for one reason or another, had never completed the Eagle Scout award but were Life Scouts. They joked about forming the "National Life Scout Association." I don't think that the success of any of those individuals was diminished because they weren't Eagle Scouts, nor that their citizenship, character and fitness impaired, nor their commitment to Scouting impacted.

 

It is unlikely, although possible, that for some reason, your son actively does not want to become an Eagle Scout at this time. I was trying to recruit a parent to become a Cub Scout leader recently. She declined stating "By becoming a Cub Scout leader, in my community I am perceived as publicly taking a position in opposition to gay rights. I am not willing to do that." Also, with you family history and your wife's he may just, at this point, be charting his own path.

 

One final thought. Even if his birthday is tomorrow, he is then 16. He has TWO YEARS to finish. In the life of a teenager, that's enough time for the dinosaurs to come to be and then become extinct. I am sure you have seen the number of youth who, at the last minute, decide to become Eagle Scouts and finish the requirements. That may happen. As you certainly know, it happens with many others.

 

However, based on experience, if you push him beyond a certain point, it will likely be counterproductive. I have seen boys complete their Eagle because of parental pressure or blackmailing (No wings, no wheels) and then walk out, turned completely off to Scouting. You can indicate your support for what he wants to do and, very infrequently, like once every six months, ask if there is anything you can do to help him finish his Eagle Scout. But it sounds as if he is a wonderful Scouting success and whether he earns the Eagle or not, he will be a wonderful Scouting success.

[SM406]

I am curious. Pretty often you will hear adults who did not finish their Eagle express the wish that they had. And sometimes those same adults will say they wished their parents had encouraged or pushed them more. Has any one experienced an adult saying they regret their parents pushing them to obtain their Eagle and thus think less of it?

 

I do not believe that earning an Eagle automatically makes you a better citizen or person just as not earning an Eagle makes you any less a person. Sometimes even as adults we need to be encouraged or pushed to reach a goal. For what ever reason, we may not see the immediate value in reaching that goal, but someone comes along that has been there done that and has the clear picture for accomplishing the goal. They share their knowledge and insight to help us move along towards the goal.

 

SM406

 

[EagleWB]

Eamonn, I know what you are feeling. My son will be 16 soon and is First Class. He has been on Summer Camp staff 2 yrs, was on staff for our week long JLT, is a committee chairman in OA and has been the person in charge of many weekend Troop campouts. He just doesn't care to advance. I know he knows and lives the program. Would I like to see him Eagle, yes but that is his decission. I don't mind when people talk to him about advancement but I make sure to tell them that if they pressure him too much and he gets turned off to Scouting then they will have to answer to me. As they said your son still has 2yrs and as long as he is active I believe you are doing the right thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laurie]

I agree with ozemu--show your son your post. Your feelings for your son and the way you expressed them are very touching, and it would be a shame for him not to hear what you just told all of us. As for being dumb or lazy: it was rude of anyone to say such things of you. You are being a supportive loving father who would like your son to make his own decisions, and you'll love him spite of the decisions he makes. That is hard to do, and it takes work to build the kind of relationship you appear to have with him. I wish you well.

[evmori]

My son did the same thing! He had all the merit badges complete & even finished his Eagle porject. All he had to do was write it up! He did nothing! I finaly asked him if he wanted to be an Eagle. He said yes. I said the you need to finish what you started. I will help if you ask, but you need to do the work. He finished (without any help from me except proofreading) and earned his Eagle!

 

I agree it is his Eagle, not yours. It's up to him to complete what he needs to complete. Is it possible he doesn't realize how close he is? Or maybe he figures he has time.

 

I would also show him yourpost.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[buffalo2]

Eammon - you've seen a lot well said above and I can only agree with much of it. The time will come for your lad when he works that Eagle for his own reasons, and he will be all the richer for it. Keep the faith!

[acco40]

Mom,

 

I sure wish I could play the piano. Why didn't you make me take piano lessons when I was "little?" Why did you make me quit?

 

Yes, your son, if he does not obtain his eagle rank may very well "blame" his father for not "making" him earn it when he is now a Scouter for your grandson. Such is the territory that goes with being a parent.

 

What I detest are the parents who look at obtaining the eagle rank as a ticket to college scholarships, job placement, etc.

 

Good luck!

 

 

[LauraT7]

yes, it is HIS choice -

 

But sometimes kids need guidance in making those choices.

 

since you communicate so well with us - I hope you can communicate so well with your son - have you talked to him so frankly?

 

Often kids get stuck or bored - or other interests pull him away - and that's OK. for some boys, the 'laid out' program of rank advancements is manageable enough - but taking the final step to plan and execute an Eagle project is just beyond them. they may need maturity, or ideas, or some kind of nudge - or just time.... But he needs to be able to make an INFORMED choice - not just let it slide away.

 

he DOES have time - but often, once they turn 16 and get Job's, cars ans girlfriends, fitting in an Eagle project gets much tougher.

 

I'd sit down and lay it all out on the line for him - some things may not have occurred to him, or he may not be thinking that far ahead - I know my son, at 13, has truble thinking about next week - much less what he's going to plan to accomplish before he turns 16 or 18...

Don't ask him for a decision - but ask him to think of the options and possibilities. Be open to pick up the discussion anytime - be encouraging.

 

My son also hit a point in advancement where he was not progressing - he had other, weighty things going on at the time - so we agreed to call a halt to advancement and badgework and just have fun. If, at a future time he wanted to quit scouting (which would have upset me, but i would live with) i did expect him to chose something else of value to pursue outside of school. He's too smart to waste time twiddling his thumbs in front of video games all the time.

 

If, after thoughtful consideration, OJ chooses to not go for his Eagle, I think you are right that it's should be his choice. But it's only right for BOTH of you to explore all options, throughout his remaining time - before deciding.

 

parenthood is tough - but I bet he'll decide to go for it - either way, will be a better person for making the decision in his own time and choosing.

 

 

[scoutldr]

My sons are now 25 and 21. Both were active Scouts, Senior Patrol Leaders, OA, one made Star, the other, Life. Neither made Eagle.

 

Son #1's true love was baseball. I supported that with many hours on the bleachers. The only games I missed were when Uncle Sam said I needed to be somewhere else. He did Scouting only to make Dad happy, and I knew that at the time. He went on to graduate from college, on the Dean's list, has a good job, and is a good, solid young man.

 

Son#2 is now a senior in college. He was Sr Class President, German Honor Society, Governor's School, Honor Roll, etc. He once told me."You need to give me deadlines and make sure I do them (referring to Eagle)." My response, "If that's what it takes to make you an Eagle, then you are not Eagle material." End of discussion.

 

BTW, I am proud of them both, and have no regrets about how it all turned out. They have the values I want them to have, in part from Scouting.

 

In my mind, the only TRUE Eagles are the ones who do it on thier own initiative because it's what THEY want to do. The rest are imposters.