Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[perdidochas]

I got the survey as well, I think they were not just fishing for the viability of the local option, but were also trying to figure some things out about YPT changes. I didn't think it was that lightweight. I was just expecting a vote on local option vs. current status. I did have the survey set up for scouters though.

[packsaddle]

Well, that is a different survey from the one I responded to. That is a short list of 'situational ethics' scenarios and I'm at a loss as to what general principles BSA is supposed to derive from the 'consensus' responses. This is an example of how uncreative and thoughtless a committee can be (I might also mention cowardly). They really hope that the lack of clarity they themselves have within the BSA leadership will somehow become clarified if they just pose the right scenarios so that everyone can see the clear truth the same way. Good luck with that.

[skeptic]

Yep, many of the National questions are way too open ended and ambiguous. Answers will vary depending on what you think they want to get at. Did the best I could, as it is better than nothing. Still simply think the "local option" is the ONLY answer; but National would need to assure the CO's of support should the PC people choose to sue individual groups. Most CO's would not have the financial ability to fight such a suit, and the Gay agenda supporters know that.

[MattR]

Paraphrasing the questions, I read:

 

1) Can gays be in scouts?

 

2) Can gays be morally straight?

 

3) Can gays tent with others?

 

4) Can leaders of cubscouts be gay?

 

5) Should the CO be able to decide about gays?

 

6) Can a gay leader go camping with boys?

 

7) Can scout adult leaders be gay?

 

8) Can gays be in scouts?

 

9) Should the CO be able to decide about gays?

 

10&11) What's bothering you?

 

12) Is the issue of gays a core part of scouting?

 

13) Will you leave if it doesn't go your way?

 

There's a lot of similarity between the questions and questionaires often do this to make sure they get a consistent answer.

 

1, 2, and 8 ask whether gay scouts should be allowed

 

4, 6, and 7 ask whether gay adults should be allowed

 

12 is a combination of 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8

 

5 and 9 are about whether the CO should decide

 

10 and 11 are a chance to talk

 

3 is about fear for your child

 

13 is about how you will deal with the change

 

Looks like a pretty solid survey to me. I'm not sure what else they can ask for considering they're sending out a million of these.

 

[packsaddle]

Question 1: Would you rather membership to be determined at the national level?

Question 2: Would you rather membership to be determined by your unit and CO?

That's simpler and more direct.

The fact that the survey asks all that other stuff seems to indicate that 'they' want to shirk responsibility and 'blame' someone else for the eventual decision under the disguise of trying to gain a deeper understanding of what the membership is thinking. Do you think their survey creates greater clarity for someone? If so, please explain. As Ross Perot says, "I'm all ears".

[MattR]

Packsaddle, you must be old to be making Ross Perot jokes. And I must be old to understand them.

 

I applaud them for asking any questions at all. I'd rather see what the parents of scouts say than those that would be just fine with destroying the BSA to win an argument.

 

I think the clarity comes from forcing people to think about real situations. I doubt most parents understand the relationship between the CO, the unit, and the council, so using scenarios seems like a good idea.

 

Unfortunately this whole thing has little to do with logic, so there's no point in reasoning about it. You're welcome to toss all of my arguments. I won't be offended.

[packsaddle]

MattR, I have great respect for forum members so I take your arguments seriously. You're right, I was even a young campaigner for Barry Goldwater! In comparison, Perot was a comical afterthought, lol, even though I sympathized with his frustration with the Republican party.

But I have seen so many committees, participated in so many retreats and brainstorming workshops and mindless planning sessions that I have a healthy contempt for weak leadership - and that is what seems to be painfully obvious in the high ranks of BSA, at least with respect to this decision. When weak leaders are unable to make a hard decision sometimes they try to run away from it by delaying or holding meetings to gauge opinion and impacts. It is a sign that they either don't have a solid set of principles or else they are afraid to stand up for them. Which of those is a good thing?

IMHO, the survey is a time-wasting tactic in the hope that WE will make the decision so obvious for them that they 'have no choice' as a defense, regardless of how they eventually decide. NJCubscouter has often wished for people to just do the right thing. Weak leaders are afraid of the 'right thing' no matter what that happens to be, if they know they're going to 'take some heat' for it.

I do give them credit, at least, for not creating a new form to fill out. Thanks for that!

[Basementdweller]

The beginning of the end of my unit started tonight.......The phone call I have dreaded happened....One of my Bible thumping parents contacted the COR about the gay leader in the unit. The next phone call was from a Pack committee member, if Mr. J is asked to leave, expect my resignation and the CM, CC WDL and BDL.....that will kill the Pack. I will have lost my second adult for troop outings....killing the troops outdoor program.

 

 

It is hard enough to recruit volunteers, good ones are like gold, harder yet to get them trained for their positions and then for them to do their job well. To have one person who isn't active in either Units leadership to be able to decapitate both units...........

 

I completely exhausted. I just don't understand the hatred.

 

I ponder my own membership at this point, At least we haven't paid for summer camp yet.

 

[DeanRx]

I still remember the first time I read about the New Orleans troop that was started with the express purpose of mollesting kids in the 1970s. Better safe than sorry.

And that piece of 40 year old history has WHAT to do with homosexuality? Hard to have a discussion with someone who can not differentiate between pedophilia and homosexuality.... Sheesh !!!

[jrsower]

I don't know that it's fair to label what happened here as hatred. I would see it as a parent that is concerned about what kind of influences their son is being put into contact with. Does it have to be more than that?

[packsaddle]

The beginning of the end of my unit started tonight.......The phone call I have dreaded happened....One of my Bible thumping parents contacted the COR about the gay leader in the unit. The next phone call was from a Pack committee member, if Mr. J is asked to leave, expect my resignation and the CM, CC WDL and BDL.....that will kill the Pack. I will have lost my second adult for troop outings....killing the troops outdoor program.

 

 

It is hard enough to recruit volunteers, good ones are like gold, harder yet to get them trained for their positions and then for them to do their job well. To have one person who isn't active in either Units leadership to be able to decapitate both units...........

 

I completely exhausted. I just don't understand the hatred.

 

I ponder my own membership at this point, At least we haven't paid for summer camp yet.

I'm hoping the COR will support the current leadership and stand solid with you and the other leaders. The concerned parent is always free to make their own decision. But regardless, please keep us informed as to how this all plays out for you.

[walk in the woods]

So, Has Smith College in Northampton, Ma ever been sued for sex discrimination?

“They didn’t go to Smith†“Go to Smith, she couldn’t even spell itâ€Â…

 

Or the Catholic Church, as they don’t ordain women as Priests, have they been sued for sex discrimination?

 

After all the pleas for the Local Option, why has no one ever mentioned the CO being sued until now?

 

And a couple more...

 

Straight woman sues the church over a headstone she was told was not acceptable to the church leadership for their private cemetery. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nascar-from-the-marbles/man-nascar-headstone-banned-church-widow-sues-230302885--nascar.html.

 

Transgendered "woman" sues private relgious college after her expulsion for "lying" on "her" application. http://www.christianpost.com/news/california-baptist-university-sued-by-expelled-transgender-student-90934/.

 

Point here isn't whether these cases are direct corrolations to the BSA decision (although the later case is interesting). Point is, organizations can be sued regardless of their position. The BSA national is the current target because they dictate policy to the chartering organizations. In short, the best return on investment for the ACLU and other organizations is to attack the shield. Remove the shield and the COs are now forced to have a policy, thus, they become the obvious target for the continued campaign. The larger the chartering organization, the better return on investment. I simply don't believe the gay movement will be satisfied with the local option and some chartering organizations will simply move on rather than fight.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So, Has Smith College in Northampton, Ma ever been sued for sex discrimination?

“They didn’t go to Smith†“Go to Smith, she couldn’t even spell itâ€Â…

 

Or the Catholic Church, as they don’t ordain women as Priests, have they been sued for sex discrimination?

 

After all the pleas for the Local Option, why has no one ever mentioned the CO being sued until now?

 

But every current chartering organization must already have the legal right to discriminate against gays and atheists, or they would be being sued NOW. The ACLU threatened to sue any public school that chartered a BSA unit that required discrimination against atheists, which is why public schools no longer charter units.

 

You'll notice the ACLU hasn't been suing the BSA for excluding gays or atheists since the Dale decision 13 years ago. If a public school chartered a BSA unit that excluded atheists (or gays, probably), they would get sued regardless of whether the BSA has a local option or not, because schools can't do that in either case.

[Fehler]

The beginning of the end of my unit started tonight.......The phone call I have dreaded happened....One of my Bible thumping parents contacted the COR about the gay leader in the unit. The next phone call was from a Pack committee member, if Mr. J is asked to leave, expect my resignation and the CM, CC WDL and BDL.....that will kill the Pack. I will have lost my second adult for troop outings....killing the troops outdoor program.

 

 

It is hard enough to recruit volunteers, good ones are like gold, harder yet to get them trained for their positions and then for them to do their job well. To have one person who isn't active in either Units leadership to be able to decapitate both units...........

 

I completely exhausted. I just don't understand the hatred.

 

I ponder my own membership at this point, At least we haven't paid for summer camp yet.

It's the COR's call. Presumably, she signed the Adult Leader Application and in doing so contacted the references. If the parent is tight with your CO, it may be a losing battle, and just get ready to mass exodus in place. No Cub Scout is going to question why they're suddenly meeting at a different church, or why another scout didn't make the move, too.

[Basementdweller]

Knowing the Parent involved it was hatred or vengeance....my post from earlier this morning disappeared......

 

But the family are bible thumpers....Oddly they have known about the gay leader for 5 years and did nothing till lastt sunday when they went to the COR. So instead of moving their scout to a unit that meets their moral standards, cough cough, they are going to destroy two units.

 

The parent that started this is one of those that asked why the cub scouts don't go to the local conservation club for youth day, we can't because cubs can't shoot rifles or shotguns and you could take your scout on your own. Goes to the IH and complains we arent active enough....really??? When asked to plan or chair the event they are too busy or some other excuse.