Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[WilVick]

Just a curiosity type question...let's say Tommy comes out at 15. He stays in and earns his Eagle Scout with palms. He's a respected leader in his troop and has been through NYLT. He's served on camp staff and is a member of the Order of the Arrow. He also maintains a membership in the camp staff venturing crew. He hits the magic 18 in Boy Scouts and is out, but maintains his membership in Venturing. Now he's 21 and has to kiss the whole thing good-bye. Just a question, BSA...you will not accept this man as a leader; will you solicit and accept his contributions through Friends of Scouting? If he hits the lotto, will his money be good enough for you when he isn't? Just being curious here.

[BadenP]

The saddest part of all of this is that the National leadership is incapable of taking and holding a firm stance on this issue/policy. The May policy change on their site is so wishy washy and hypocritical that all it will do is alienate all sides in this debate. In my area three churches ,long time active scouting supporters have suspended all scouting until National comes to some kind of supportable solution to this issue. In our communty the BSA has become the butt of anger, indecisiveness, and a "bad influence on the youth". Parents have been pulling their kids out in droves. Even in my church the parents have begun asking me about alternatives to scouting for our church youth. Bottom line it is time for National to put up and deal with the ramifications or leave the decision entirely to the CO's. Their current methodology will do nothing but lead scouting to a slow agonizing death.

[Sentinel947]

The saddest part of all of this is that the National leadership is incapable of taking and holding a firm stance on this issue/policy. The May policy change on their site is so wishy washy and hypocritical that all it will do is alienate all sides in this debate. In my area three churches ,long time active scouting supporters have suspended all scouting until National comes to some kind of supportable solution to this issue. In our communty the BSA has become the butt of anger, indecisiveness, and a "bad influence on the youth". Parents have been pulling their kids out in droves. Even in my church the parents have begun asking me about alternatives to scouting for our church youth. Bottom line it is time for National to put up and deal with the ramifications or leave the decision entirely to the CO's. Their current methodology will do nothing but lead scouting to a slow agonizing death.

BadenP: If you don't mind my intrusion, where do you live? I haven't seen this at all.

[skeptic]

The saddest part of all of this is that the National leadership is incapable of taking and holding a firm stance on this issue/policy. The May policy change on their site is so wishy washy and hypocritical that all it will do is alienate all sides in this debate. In my area three churches ,long time active scouting supporters have suspended all scouting until National comes to some kind of supportable solution to this issue. In our communty the BSA has become the butt of anger, indecisiveness, and a "bad influence on the youth". Parents have been pulling their kids out in droves. Even in my church the parents have begun asking me about alternatives to scouting for our church youth. Bottom line it is time for National to put up and deal with the ramifications or leave the decision entirely to the CO's. Their current methodology will do nothing but lead scouting to a slow agonizing death.

Sentinel; take it with a grain of salt as B.P. exaggerates constantly and obviously has a vendetta against National in general. He may deny, but it is clear from his long list of negative posts, no matter what the issue. Just my personal observation and opinion of course.

[King Ding Dong]

The saddest part of all of this is that the National leadership is incapable of taking and holding a firm stance on this issue/policy. The May policy change on their site is so wishy washy and hypocritical that all it will do is alienate all sides in this debate. In my area three churches ,long time active scouting supporters have suspended all scouting until National comes to some kind of supportable solution to this issue. In our communty the BSA has become the butt of anger, indecisiveness, and a "bad influence on the youth". Parents have been pulling their kids out in droves. Even in my church the parents have begun asking me about alternatives to scouting for our church youth. Bottom line it is time for National to put up and deal with the ramifications or leave the decision entirely to the CO's. Their current methodology will do nothing but lead scouting to a slow agonizing death.

3 churches have decided to punish the youth for a not yet decided on proposal by adults at National ? That is not Scouting, time to find a new Troop. To those parents looking for an alternative to Scouting may I suggest the 700 Club.

[King Ding Dong]

Just a curiosity type question...let's say Tommy comes out at 15. He stays in and earns his Eagle Scout with palms. He's a respected leader in his troop and has been through NYLT. He's served on camp staff and is a member of the Order of the Arrow. He also maintains a membership in the camp staff venturing crew. He hits the magic 18 in Boy Scouts and is out, but maintains his membership in Venturing. Now he's 21 and has to kiss the whole thing good-bye. Just a question, BSA...you will not accept this man as a leader; will you solicit and accept his contributions through Friends of Scouting? If he hits the lotto, will his money be good enough for you when he isn't? Just being curious here.

For the reasons you stated, if this gets passed it will remain for only a very short time. Those on the extreme right will take their ball and bat and go home, tipping the scales just far enough so can put this to rest and get back to scouting.

[packsaddle]

The saddest part of all of this is that the National leadership is incapable of taking and holding a firm stance on this issue/policy. The May policy change on their site is so wishy washy and hypocritical that all it will do is alienate all sides in this debate. In my area three churches ,long time active scouting supporters have suspended all scouting until National comes to some kind of supportable solution to this issue. In our communty the BSA has become the butt of anger, indecisiveness, and a "bad influence on the youth". Parents have been pulling their kids out in droves. Even in my church the parents have begun asking me about alternatives to scouting for our church youth. Bottom line it is time for National to put up and deal with the ramifications or leave the decision entirely to the CO's. Their current methodology will do nothing but lead scouting to a slow agonizing death.

I don't know about BadenP's 'vendetta' but I definitely do not have any kind of vendetta against anything other than 1) indecisive, weak leadership or 2) decisions that are needlessly unfair or hurtful to others. Therefore, I often agree with the spirit of BadenP's comments about BSA National if not the underlying reasons (which I admit I probably don't understand any better than I understand the stupid decisions that BSA National makes).

At any rate, to further comment on the idea that gay people will be awarded the Eagle rank....of course they've considered this possibility. Here's the worst of all possible scenarios: BSA decides, after all this, not to change a single thing about the membership policy. That would be just awesome. I almost hope it happens. "The suspense is terrible, I hope it will last."

[MattR]

Just a curiosity type question...let's say Tommy comes out at 15. He stays in and earns his Eagle Scout with palms. He's a respected leader in his troop and has been through NYLT. He's served on camp staff and is a member of the Order of the Arrow. He also maintains a membership in the camp staff venturing crew. He hits the magic 18 in Boy Scouts and is out, but maintains his membership in Venturing. Now he's 21 and has to kiss the whole thing good-bye. Just a question, BSA...you will not accept this man as a leader; will you solicit and accept his contributions through Friends of Scouting? If he hits the lotto, will his money be good enough for you when he isn't? Just being curious here.

That concern, while a great example of a confused bureaucracy, is probably less of a real problem. How many parents in your troop help out but aren't registered adults? So tell the scout not to register but ask him to help out. It won't work for the guy that wants to be SM or a camp director, but will work for everyone else. As packsaddle said, it will work itself out. It's not great, but I'd rather deal with that problem than splitting my troop in half, or splitting camporees, or ....

 

It's like the people that tell us scouts can't climb on rocks over shoulder height. That probably works fine in the Texas pan handle, but not where I live.

[bbender]

On the question of “does anyone know why the LDS was not included on the survey results? Did they voluntarily decide to sit out, and are they (as some are saying) waiting to vote with their feet if the - what do we call it?â€Â, this is a great big mystery.

 

I believe I read over the weekend (while camping in the forests, field and streams) that LDS leadership told their Chartered Orgs not to respond to the poll, that they would take care of it at the highest level.

 

And that until there was a concrete resolution, there would be no official comment from the top of the LDS about what the LDS Wards, Stakes and units would do.

 

On the one hand, perhaps that vote will come in entirely against the Resolution. It is noted that some polls of LDS leaders and/or the results from Councils and Regions that are heavily LDS are in favor of the current policy.

 

But on the other hand, it is noted that this Resolution was approved unanimously by the Executive Committee of the BSA, and that there are a significant number of LDS members of the Executive Committee.

 

But on the other other hand (under the DRP, we have to have many other other hands, like the Hindu Vedic Supreme God Vishnu), perhaps the unanimous vote to approve the Resolution that will go to the 1400 voters for final determination is similar to a “cloture†vote in the United States Senate, where the Senate might unanimously approve the debating of a bill (brining the bill to the floor) and/or the closing of debate (eliminating any filibuster and allowing and “up or down voteâ€Â) . . . and then all go out and defeat the bill . . .

 

. . . it all remains to be seen . . .

 

That said, given what you might call the “love the sinner†signals from the LDS church recently (the [url=http://www.mormonsandgays.org]http://www.mormonsandgays.org[/url=http://www.mormonsandgays.org] site that launched last winter, for example), the concept of not shunning LDS youth who declare themselves to be homosexual – not shunning them either from the church or the church youth program – makes a lot of sense.

 

I suspect that exclusion would be (and is) rare. I suspect that many conservative chartered organizations might want to retain a youth in order that their selected leaders may impart all of the virtues that they believe will be imparted by membership in the organization, since I suspect most would say “we want youth to participate . . . we just don’t want them to have ‘that kind’ of role modelâ€Â. Or, as it is sometimes said: if homosexuality is a moral choice, then belonging to an organization that fosters good moral choices is the best result for that youth.

 

 

 

[acco40]

I've got a novel approached that worked wonders for another great institution that I believe in wholeheartedly - let's allow three-fifths of a gay member, adult and youth, to join the BSA. :-)

[King Ding Dong]

I've got a novel approached that worked wonders for another great institution that I believe in wholeheartedly - let's allow three-fifths of a gay member, adult and youth, to join the BSA. :-)

That's good.

[packsaddle]

I've got a novel approached that worked wonders for another great institution that I believe in wholeheartedly - let's allow three-fifths of a gay member, adult and youth, to join the BSA. :-)

You are SOOOO wicked, acco40, lol.

I like that.

[SSScout]

In the few corporate shareholder meetings I have attended, the Board always presents their Resolutions, expecting the shareholders to vote "yea" because the Board sees the share holders as seeing the Board as the trusted leaders that Know More Than We Do. When the Shareholders present other resolutions to change policy or corporate direction, the Board inevitably "recommends a NO vote on the following shareholder proposals".

So it is here.

Our six figure income leaders (remember, this is a non-profit organization) are trying to balance the folks that believe certain behaviors are sinful with the folks that believe we are all God's children and "God don't make no mistakes" as the old Baptist minister said, with the big corporate donors, with the folks that just want to go camping and listen to the wind in the trees (remember Baden-Powell's "church of nature " comment?) with the idea that our children, by and large, don't even give the sexuality issue a second thought.

And, still, we are driven, as a species , to perpetuate and "go forth and multiply". Homosexual behavior doesn't do that , directly, hence is seen by some as sort of counterproductive. Doesn't mean you can't be a good dad or mom if your partner is of the same gender.

I agree that the CO have always had the right (by contract!) to approve or deny the leaders, for whatever reason, of their units. But have you ever heard of a CO denying the membership of an adulterous hetero? There have been cases where the leadership was denied due to "femaleness" and "skin hue", and "wrong religion", yes?

 

For the BSA to change the "official" membership policy to admit the possibility of the moral rectitude of homosexual inclined folks would be a courageous step (a Scout is Brave) in the face of other beliefs. Sinful behavior is defined by religion, not Law. What is counterproductive in a cooperative, peaceful society is declared unlawful and controlled thereby by rewards and punishments. Sin is punished by God (vengeance is mine, sayeth who?), re-read the book of Job .

 

If Christ is my role model, how else can I behave but allow my brother (and sister?) the benefit of the doubt , and judge them not by how they are, but by their behavior toward their fellow human?

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I've got a novel approached that worked wonders for another great institution that I believe in wholeheartedly - let's allow three-fifths of a gay member, adult and youth, to join the BSA. :-)

Acco, I don't think the BSA would do anything that results in an UNDERcount of members. Maybe they could count the straight people as 1.666666_ of a member, and gay people as 1, so it balances out to three-fifths. And since gay people would probably only be 2 to 5 percent of the membership (as they are in the population), that would really improve the membership numbers. They would go up by almost 66.6_ percent without doing anything.

 

But you may be on to something in another way: Looking at the results of the surveys (well, the narrative results, there are very few actual numbers), maybe they counted certain people's responses (both straight and gay) as being worth three-fifths of a "vote." I certainly don't feel like my opinions were fully taken into account.

[DigitalScout]

All COs will HAVE to accept registration from openly gay youth if the resolution passes? I think most (but not all) LDS wards and Catholic churches can live with gay youth in their midst, but what is the Southern Baptist Convention units going to do if this passes? It will be just a matter of time before a gay activist teen registers with a troop chartered by the SBC just to cause a stir. The BSA will have to back the gay youth's registration. That would be interesting.