Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[AZMike]

When you are conducting a survey to help you figure out what to do, you are not "moral." You are not doing what you believe in. You are not leading. You are not standing up for anything. When you need a survey to figure out what your policy is, you are just chasing dollar bills and members.

 

I am an atheist, and I would like to see the policy rescinded, but I would only be satisfied in BSA rescinded all of the membership policy no matter the fallout or destruction it caused, because they realize what they were doing is wrong, and then apologized to everyone wronged in the past and made reparations to all youth denied eagle, all adults previously expelled.

 

The way it is now, they are just pathetic old cowards more worried about money, camps, and their little wood badge club than they are moral men taking a stand on values.

 

This resolution proves BSA is NOT a values based organization.

 

I would have had more respect for my opponents had they simply continued the policy, ignored their critics, and taken the organization deeper into Christianity. At least then they would be looking me in the eye.

 

This resolution, for the first time, makes me think that BSA is not worthy of my energy. Funny, it wasn't until today that instead of seeing them as misguided and old-fashioned, I see them as greedy, selfish, evil, and twisted.

 

Today I am ashamed of my eagle award and ashamed that tomorrow I will wear the uniform.

 

This may be it for me.

 

That would require the majority of scouters to vote against their morality to appease yours, Thomas Jefferson. How would that be a demonstration of values? About 7% of the U.S. population is atheist, according to Gallup, and about 3% self-identify as gay. It really doesn't make any sense for those who have a moral sense of obligation different from the one you hold to change their beliefs to accommodate your subculture. Belief in God and a religiously-based system of morality has been an element of scouting from the beginning.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

When you are conducting a survey to help you figure out what to do, you are not "moral." You are not doing what you believe in. You are not leading. You are not standing up for anything. When you need a survey to figure out what your policy is, you are just chasing dollar bills and members.

 

I am an atheist, and I would like to see the policy rescinded, but I would only be satisfied in BSA rescinded all of the membership policy no matter the fallout or destruction it caused, because they realize what they were doing is wrong, and then apologized to everyone wronged in the past and made reparations to all youth denied eagle, all adults previously expelled.

 

The way it is now, they are just pathetic old cowards more worried about money, camps, and their little wood badge club than they are moral men taking a stand on values.

 

This resolution proves BSA is NOT a values based organization.

 

I would have had more respect for my opponents had they simply continued the policy, ignored their critics, and taken the organization deeper into Christianity. At least then they would be looking me in the eye.

 

This resolution, for the first time, makes me think that BSA is not worthy of my energy. Funny, it wasn't until today that instead of seeing them as misguided and old-fashioned, I see them as greedy, selfish, evil, and twisted.

 

Today I am ashamed of my eagle award and ashamed that tomorrow I will wear the uniform.

 

This may be it for me.

 

AZMike, for some odd reason you appear to think that only atheists would be in favor of including atheists in scouting, and the same with gays, as you use their approximate population figures as if they're the sum total of public support. That's not even close.

[packsaddle]

Thomas Jefferson, etc.

Look, I'm reading all the indignation and outrage and I'm scratching my head wondering....why? You guys DID understand that a committee was going to create this, right? You DID understand that the committee was composed of the same people whose genius has put BSA where it is already? What the heck were you expecting.....reason?

So get down off that high horse and grab onto some reality. Gay youth are no longer excluded. THAT is huge. Think about it. Really. I mean, REALLY think about that. Gay youth are no longer excluded.

This means that not only are the most open and 'in-your-face' personalities welcomed as youth members, gender identification is no longer an issue for youth membership. If you think those are the same thing, think some more.

Of course that leaves the adults right where they are now. Which is what? Gay adults are already members and they will continue to be members. They just can't be open about it.

If any of you think this is NOT practically an open invitation for COs to discreetly practice local option anyway, think again. That IS going to be the result. The organization is already moving in that direction at the grass-roots level and this will just grease the skids, so-to-speak.

So do not despair. Yes, the national leadership has made themselves look like thoughtless troglodytes. And that is news to whom? Just take these new opportunities to spread the openings even wider and shrug off the stupidity. It's working. It's not working as fast as you want. But it IS working.

Thomas Jefferson, after you've finished feeling sorry for yourself with all that moral outrage, ask yourself: what do the boys gain and what good does it do in the larger sense...for you to quit?

Nothing. Stick it out and if nothing else, make a sport of needling the opposition. Merlyn might appreciate some company from time to time.

[Rick_in_CA]

Gay youth are no longer excluded. THAT is huge.

 

I agree this will be huge, but only if it passes. We still have the vote in May and I hear this is not a done deal. The conservatives are putting on a full court press to stop it. They did a much better job of getting people on their side to get involved and fill out the survey, send letters and emails, etc.. I saw flyers passed out at round table for example. I didn't see any flyers or emails from the progressive side. I thought about handing out a flyer at round table making sure people knew about the survey, but decided it wasn't appropriate. Maybe I was wrong and I should have.

[RememberSchiff]

This wouldn't even change the situation for youth all that much; if a youth member has any inclination to continue in scouting as an adult, he'll still have to be in the closet as a boy scout.

Agree. At least if this resolution is approved, the gay scout could receive his earned Eagle rank, but then at age 18 his involvement in scouting would be over. So accept gays as scouts but don't retain them as adult leaders. ????

[Sentinel947]

Gay youth are no longer excluded. THAT is huge.

 

I agree this will be huge, but only if it passes. We still have the vote in May and I hear this is not a done deal. The conservatives are putting on a full court press to stop it. They did a much better job of getting people on their side to get involved and fill out the survey, send letters and emails, etc.. I saw flyers passed out at round table for example. I didn't see any flyers or emails from the progressive side. I thought about handing out a flyer at round table making sure people knew about the survey, but decided it wasn't appropriate. Maybe I was wrong and I should have.

I agree. I did mobilization of some of my friends, but I didn't do any sort of activism with people at Scouting functions. Perhaps that was part of the problem. After I got over my intial disappointment, I do take Packsaddles position. It's a good start, and those people who are outside of the BSA need to continue their efforts. Those of us inside the BSA need to continue to put on excellent programs and be ready for when the BSA looks at this issue again. Which they will. If all the progressives drop out of the BSA over this halfway step, then the organization will never change. When I attend a council meeting on this topic, I will be lobbying for the passage of this proposal. One step at a time I suppose.

 

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

[skeptic]

Yep, once again the pre-announcement of the resolution, not yet actually passed, has become REALITY in the press. I suppose they needed to have the actual resolution wording available for the voting members ahead of time, and it would have been leaked anyway, but now we are again where we were with the earlier announcement about the "local option". I do find it interesting that there has been little verbal jousting about the small, but definitely changed, adult wording that clarifies to some extent the definition of "Avowed", and adds wording to include other possible distraction bent leaders. It also very specifically appears to make it clear the pushing of ANY agenda is unacceptable. To me, that is a huge improvement and does give more support to the

CO 's part in leadership selection.

[Basementdweller]

Thomas Jefferson, etc.

Look, I'm reading all the indignation and outrage and I'm scratching my head wondering....why? You guys DID understand that a committee was going to create this, right? You DID understand that the committee was composed of the same people whose genius has put BSA where it is already? What the heck were you expecting.....reason?

So get down off that high horse and grab onto some reality. Gay youth are no longer excluded. THAT is huge. Think about it. Really. I mean, REALLY think about that. Gay youth are no longer excluded.

This means that not only are the most open and 'in-your-face' personalities welcomed as youth members, gender identification is no longer an issue for youth membership. If you think those are the same thing, think some more.

Of course that leaves the adults right where they are now. Which is what? Gay adults are already members and they will continue to be members. They just can't be open about it.

If any of you think this is NOT practically an open invitation for COs to discreetly practice local option anyway, think again. That IS going to be the result. The organization is already moving in that direction at the grass-roots level and this will just grease the skids, so-to-speak.

So do not despair. Yes, the national leadership has made themselves look like thoughtless troglodytes. And that is news to whom? Just take these new opportunities to spread the openings even wider and shrug off the stupidity. It's working. It's not working as fast as you want. But it IS working.

Thomas Jefferson, after you've finished feeling sorry for yourself with all that moral outrage, ask yourself: what do the boys gain and what good does it do in the larger sense...for you to quit?

Nothing. Stick it out and if nothing else, make a sport of needling the opposition. Merlyn might appreciate some company from time to time.

Gay adults can still be members until some adult with an Ax To Grind gets wind of it and reports them......

 

It was basically a non decision.

[MattR]

I must admit, I like the idea that there won't be two different types of troops. On May 25th I'll just be able to say this is the way it's going to be, take it or leave. I don't need to worry about splitting the troop, or split camporees, or split summer camp. There's some wisdom in that. If the program is good then scouts will stay.

 

Maybe the strategy isn't to appease the far left or far right, because they will still scream and oxygenate their blood no matter what the BSA does. They also have no qualms about destroying the BSA to make a point. Maybe the strategy is to appease the center and focus on the young parents that control the future. The survey said parents are overwhelmingly OK with gay scouts but they are split over gay leaders. That's what drove the resolution. That's where society is. All of those with strong opinions on this will disagree with society and not be happy with the resolution.

 

Just maybe the BSA is standing up for what they believe in, which is scouting. High adventure, service projects, self sufficiency, leadership. I could really go for that.

 

[Basementdweller]

So Matt,

 

How is letting only gay youth to be members of the BSA standing up for what they believe in???????

 

 

Standing up for what they believe in is either an all or nothing proposition. Which ever direction you believe that lies????? Not this only gay youth......

 

I read the opinion on the link above....My summary of it is......Gay adults will be welcome but we need to wait till those over 50 die off or stop being involved in scouitng.

 

[moosetracker]

This just will tick off everyone, and will fix nothing. While I agree that youth shouldn't be kicked out, and the majority of us have up to now considered this to be their stance already, so basically this proposal is proposing what they are already doing.. Even with this some SM will deny signing eagle rank to gay youth (they will need to appeal to council & national) or kick gay youth out of their unit based on their units rules..

 

My DE was talking to it yesterday.. He just recently tried to get some jewish churches to sponser a BSA they read him the rite act on their exclusive ways, and as long as we have it they will not support a BSA program.. He also has very little corporate donations for FOS but 2 lists one group that will donate if policy is left alone, the other which will donate if it is changed to be inclusive.. As he says this solution will mean he will get no donations from either group..

 

National may think they are done for a few years, but the in-fighting has escalated over their latest muck-up, and it will not die down because they proclaim this as a solution and tell everyone to cut-it-out.. Sorry, both sides are now up in arms and will not lay down their weapons over this wimp-out solution.

[moosetracker]

 

I also have to agree with others... How can the majority of scouts & scouters under 50 be for inclusion of homosexuals, yet the poll of All scouts & scouters are anti-inclusiveness, if we have THAT many scouters over 50 then the BSA program has more problems then just this!.. We are a youth organization who the majority of members are 50 and over.. I am in this group of old geezers, but in my area don't see my age group as the majority.. And I will also say, we are the last group that our opinion should matter.. We no longer have kids in the program, or are the parents who have the kids in grade school and under who we need to recruit, in fact if all us old geezers walked out tommorrow, scouting would continue just fine without us. The scouting program is #1 for the youth, #2 for the parents who wish scouting to help them teach their kids the values they wish them to learn.. Us old geezers, should have the least impact on this decision.

 

[MattR]

So Matt,

 

How is letting only gay youth to be members of the BSA standing up for what they believe in???????

 

 

Standing up for what they believe in is either an all or nothing proposition. Which ever direction you believe that lies????? Not this only gay youth......

 

I read the opinion on the link above....My summary of it is......Gay adults will be welcome but we need to wait till those over 50 die off or stop being involved in scouitng.

My point is that organizations sometimes need to figure out what they do well and what they should stay away from. What the BSA does well has little to do with gays and is more about creating troops and packs with a good program. By taking a stand on gay rights the BSA has become a focal point of the culture war. They've been that way for a long time, it has done them no good, and going all in or all out won't change that. They recognize that society is mixed on this and taking a position that reflects the middle ground is a position that reflects society. I can certainly see how you would not be happy with that stance. But to paraphrase what you said, as society changes and the scout membership reflects that change, the BSA will change its policy. I also understand your desire to just make the change and get it over with, but society really isn't there yet. It's split fairly evenly. i.e., let someone else fight that battle, punting is OK.

 

The core competencies of the BSA include things like developing leadership in teenagers, and doing community service. Nobody can come close to what we do right, so let's make that the focus of what people think when they see the Boy Scouts.

[Kahuna]

I tend to side more with the "splitting the baby" line of thought, which worked for Solomon, but usually not for these kinds of issues. If the resolution doesn't pass, they'll be in bigger pudu than they already are. I recall that Wayne Brock said at the All Hands meeting something to the effect that, regardless of the decision made, we'll be revisiting it in a few years. I'm glad that youth members won't have to worry about not getting Eagle, but sad they'll be kicked out at 18 (or 21 in Venturing and Sea Scouts, they are still considered youth). That should be interesting. How will they handle the issue of openly gay Venturers who are youth over 18 on camp staffs, Philmont and other high adventure staffs? Hmmmmmmmmmmm . . . They also can continue to work on awards like Quartermaster.

[Huzzar]

I also have to agree with others... How can the majority of scouts & scouters under 50 be for inclusion of homosexuals, yet the poll of All scouts & scouters are anti-inclusiveness, if we have THAT many scouters over 50 then the BSA program has more problems then just this!.. We are a youth organization who the majority of members are 50 and over.. I am in this group of old geezers, but in my area don't see my age group as the majority.. And I will also say, we are the last group that our opinion should matter.. We no longer have kids in the program, or are the parents who have the kids in grade school and under who we need to recruit, in fact if all us old geezers walked out tommorrow, scouting would continue just fine without us. The scouting program is #1 for the youth, #2 for the parents who wish scouting to help them teach their kids the values they wish them to learn.. Us old geezers, should have the least impact on this decision.

The only two parts of the survey you have to look at are *existing* parents and leaders (64% want no change) and the effect of allowing homosexual adult leaders, a loss of 100,000 to 350,000 members. The rest of it is noise. No membership based organization can spit in the face of its existing membership and expect to survive. The pro-change voices on this site are the minority, not majority.

 

As far as youth and their opinions go, who do you think has the greatest say in membership decisions, the youth or the parent that pays the dues, drops the kid off and signs the permission slips? There are very few moms out there that would knowingly send their teenage boys into the wilderness for ten days with 2 gay guys as the leaders. That ain't bigotry it's common sense.