Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[packsaddle]

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

[Gone]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

[Peregrinator]

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

No, it was because they made that disagreement part of the religious award.

[skeptic]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

Why would you want to do such a rational and common sense thing?

[Rick_in_CA]

I think some people are misunderstanding my question. I am actually asking a question.

 

I have had several discussions with scouters about the nonsectarian stance of the BSA, and had several scouters tell me that the BSA is a Christian organization, and that nonsectarian means the same as nondenominational. I understand even the BSA's Religious Relationships Committee referred to the BSA as a Christian ecumenical organization (in a letter to the UUA back in the late 90s). This differs from my understanding of what a nonsectarian BSA is.

 

So I am asking, what does "nonsectarian" (in the BSA context) mean to you?

[ghjim]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

This subject has been argued on this forum before, but I will mention that the BSA has used it's congressional charter to block competing organizations in the past.

If the upcoming vote affirms the selective membership of the BSA I predict that there may be new efforts to challenge or alter the congressional charter.

[Tim in NJ]

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

Ok, I'll go for the low-hanging fruit: the very policy we have been debating has been pro-Christian. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals from the program certainly was created (and specifically affirmed just last summer) to align with the teachings of many larger Christian denominations. Is anyone really making the argument that this policy was created or continued to mesh with Muslim or Jewish teachings?

 

mozartbrau: You state "...I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days..." and I really don't disagree with that point very much. In my mind however, aligning with most major religions and disregarding other major religions does not meet the established claim of being "completely nonsectarian". As far as I am concerned, the BSA has to drop either this policy of excluding gays, or they have to drop the claim of being completely nonsectarian... the two principles are simply incompatible within the same membership framework.

[packsaddle]

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

Peregrinator, it is a UUA religious award. Not a BSA religious award. The UUA stated their views in their own literature and BSA didn't like it so BSA excluded the religious award. I concur that BSA's action did nothing whatsoever to address the disagreement. What I didn't like was that the ONLY thing BSA's action did do was to punish the boys. It was a cowardly, low thing to do, and completely unnecessary.

[packsaddle]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

I take it that I successfully answered your challenge then?

Surely you can find a less cliched way to respond than that old bumper sticker slogan about starting your own program? It's long ago become stale, moldy and gone to dust.

[packsaddle]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

On the other hand, if BSA does change the policy....are you going to exercise that freedom you just described?

[Gone]

On the other hand' date=' if BSA does change the policy....are you going to exercise that freedom you just described?[/quote']

 

Darn right I will. I will find a unit that "keeps to the code".

[Gone]

Ok' date=' I'll go for the low-hanging fruit: the very policy we have been debating has been pro-Christian. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals from the program certainly was created (and specifically affirmed just last summer) to align with the teachings of many larger Christian denominations.[/quote']

 

I asked for a BSA policy that was SOLELY Christian. You telling me Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddists all embrace homosexuality and Christians are the only Visigoths? Please.

 

[AZMike]

Ok' date=' I'll go for the low-hanging fruit: the very policy we have been debating has been pro-Christian. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals from the program certainly was created (and specifically affirmed just last summer) to align with the teachings of many larger Christian denominations.[/quote']

 

I asked for a BSA policy that was SOLELY Christian. You telling me Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddists all embrace homosexuality and Christians are the only Visigoths? Please.

Yeahhhh, I wondered about that too. Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, Evangelical Christianity, Mormonism, many mainline Protestant sects, Hinduism, the Baha'i faith, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism either prohibit or strongly discourage homosexual acts, sexual relations outside of marriage, most of the sexual acts which homosexuals perform, and/or lack of chastity, and also have a definition of marriage that excludes anything but male/female, even as most of those faiths encourage compassion for the sinner and repentance by the one who is involved in the sex acts themselves. I know historical literacy is dying out, but one would be hard-pressed to argue that the traditional moral view of homosexual relations is one that is solely "pro-Christian."

[ghjim]

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

 

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

I will also add here that your implication the "obvious majority" of BSA volunteers and members are having an more open membership policy forced upon them is not established. We will see come the May vote.

[Tim in NJ]

Ok' date=' I'll go for the low-hanging fruit: the very policy we have been debating has been pro-Christian. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals from the program certainly was created (and specifically affirmed just last summer) to align with the teachings of many larger Christian denominations.[/quote']

 

I asked for a BSA policy that was SOLELY Christian. You telling me Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddists all embrace homosexuality and Christians are the only Visigoths? Please.

I specifically did not tell you that. If you want a policy that is SOLELY Christian, I can't give it to you. My emphasis is on the fact that BSA is and has been disregarding their own proclamation that they are a nonsectarian organization. BSA National has decided to pick and choose their interpretation of morality on this issue from a large, but still limited, subset of religious teachings. I find these two items to be contradictory and exclusive of each other.

 

My personal belief is that National, in ignoring the "completely nonsectarian" policy, defaulted to the majority of Christian teachings. I seriously doubt that the views of other religions were ever highly considered.

 

I might as well put this out there as well: I consider myself to be a Christian. Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod specifically. In the tradition of Martin Luther himself, however, I do not agree with all of the teachings and policies of my church. I just haven't nailed my thesis to the door yet!