Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[ThomasJefferson]

This weekend another scouter asked me “why do you want the conservatives to leave scouting?â€Â. I answered that I don’t, I just want them to give others the same respect they wish to receive. Why does it have to be about the other side leaving?

 

I really feel strongly about this. Ever since I was a youth in scouting, I believed one of the great things about it was that people of every faith and stripe could sit down together as welcome members of the same scouting family. I want my scouts to be able to see people of other faiths and beliefs as good and reasonable people who happen to have different beliefs, not as bad people who are wrong. And one of the best ways to accomplish that, I believe, is to have them encounter such people in positive settings. I don’t know, maybe go to camp with them? It’s much harder to think of a group of people as simple caricatures if you know some of them personally and realize that they are not idiots, or morally bankrupt, or out to destroy X, but decent people with some different opinions or beliefs.

 

I want my scouts to be able to say or think the next time they hear something of the form: “You know all those X people think that ...â€Â, they can reply “Actually, that’s not true. I went to camp with an X, and he was a decent kid and didn’t say anything like that.†That is part of growing up to be a decent citizen and human being. That is why I want my scouts to get an opportunity to meet and interact with people of a wide range of faiths, political views, nationalities, personality types, physical and mental abilities, etc. - and to learn to see them as human beings, not cartoon characters. To learn that what make someone a decent, or not decent person has very little to do with which faith, or nationality, etc. they are.

 

In my life I have been privileged to get to know and be friends with people that are deeply conservative, strongly liberal, straight, gay, Catholic, Jewish, Unitarian, Protestant, Sikh, Atheist, Agnostic and Wiccan. And to know them as good and decent people. Some are very thoughtful, some are a bit flighty, some are gentle some are rambunctious. But they are all people that it is an honor for me to be able to call them friend. Yes, some of are discussions can be filled with strong opinions and sometimes generate some heat. But we usually end with a smile and sometimes a hug, but always as friends.

 

Yet I do know people that say things like: “all republicans are jack booted thugsâ€Â, or “all democrats are socialists that hate America†or use phrases like: “liberal scum†or “#@#& conservativesâ€Â; and I say: “have you actually got to know any?â€Â

 

So when I hear scouters say things like: “I don’t want my scouts associating with Xâ€Â, “X won’t be happy until they destroy scoutingâ€Â, or “why don’t they just leave and form their own group?â€Â, it make me sad. Because if they get their way, scouting will be a poorer place, and the youth will loose one of the great parts of scouting.

"Any solution, to be effective, has to affirmatively respect both sides."

 

I would say the opposite. Any solution has to affirmatively reject one of the two sides for once and for all. The fence sitting is what perpetuates the conflict. One side has to be told they are never going to get their way, and that they were wrong. That is how human differences are resolved. A court, an executive office, or a legislature or committee of some kind rules and says, "This is now where the line between right and wrong is. Everyone on that side, you are now wrong. The end. Too bad."

[TSS_Chris]

The opposition to this is organizing. Facebook just showed me an ad for OnMyHonor.net[/url=http://www.onmyhonor.net/].

 

"OnMyHonor.net is the official coalition of concerned parents, Scout Leaders, Scouting Donors, Eagle Scouts and others affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America who are united in their support of Scouting’s timeless values and their opposition to open homosexuality in the Scouts."

 

[TSS_Chris]

The opposition to this is organizing. Facebook just showed me an ad for OnMyHonor.net[/url=http://www.onmyhonor.net/].

 

"OnMyHonor.net is the official coalition of concerned parents, Scout Leaders, Scouting Donors, Eagle Scouts and others affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America who are united in their support of Scouting’s timeless values and their opposition to open homosexuality in the Scouts."

 

[AZMike]

Interesting rumor I heard last week - the idea is being floated to keep BSA traditional, and allow Venturing Crews to allow gays as leaders and crew members. Use it as a test project to see what happens with the older crew members. The news media (which have the same deep understanding of Scouting complexities as they do of religious ones) hears that Scouting is allowing gays in, takes the pressure off National on the issue. GLAAD, other gay pressure groups get to declare victory and go home. Traditional morality still remains part of the Boy Scouts Core Mission. Religious COs can keep their BSA troops. Sounds like a Machiavellian version of the "Czechoslovakian Solution" that was discussed on this thread in the past. Probably just rumor, but anyone else heard this? Any comments?

[Nike]

Interesting rumor I heard last week - the idea is being floated to keep BSA traditional, and allow Venturing Crews to allow gays as leaders and crew members. Use it as a test project to see what happens with the older crew members. The news media (which have the same deep understanding of Scouting complexities as they do of religious ones) hears that Scouting is allowing gays in, takes the pressure off National on the issue. GLAAD, other gay pressure groups get to declare victory and go home. Traditional morality still remains part of the Boy Scouts Core Mission. Religious COs can keep their BSA troops. Sounds like a Machiavellian version of the "Czechoslovakian Solution" that was discussed on this thread in the past. Probably just rumor, but anyone else heard this? Any comments?

It's time to just go all in. Saying to a parent that he/she can be a leader in this type of unit but not that is not welcoming. Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are the flagship programs. If those two divisions don't accept gay members, then the battle will simply rage on.

[Basementdweller]

The opposition to this is organizing. Facebook just showed me an ad for OnMyHonor.net[/url=http://www.onmyhonor.net/].

 

"OnMyHonor.net is the official coalition of concerned parents, Scout Leaders, Scouting Donors, Eagle Scouts and others affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America who are united in their support of Scouting’s timeless values and their opposition to open homosexuality in the Scouts."

My what a very Caucasian group they are....The one poor fellow is the poster man for "Man Scout"

[packsaddle]

The opposition to this is organizing. Facebook just showed me an ad for OnMyHonor.net[/url=http://www.onmyhonor.net/].

 

"OnMyHonor.net is the official coalition of concerned parents, Scout Leaders, Scouting Donors, Eagle Scouts and others affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America who are united in their support of Scouting’s timeless values and their opposition to open homosexuality in the Scouts."

Comment on Basementdweller's comment:

OK, I give up. Which one?

....or maybe I just don't know what a 'Man Scout' is.

[Rick_in_CA]

A question for everyone (I’d start a new pole on this if I could):

 

The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. What does that mean to you:

 

A) People of all religious faiths are equally welcome, and the BSA shouldn’t favor on faith over another.

 

B) The BSA is primarily a Christian organization and it’s core beliefs are based on Christian values. Others may join, but they must conform to those values.

[Tim in NJ]

A question for everyone (I’d start a new pole on this if I could): The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. What does that mean to you:

A) People of all religious faiths are equally welcome, and the BSA shouldn’t favor on faith over another.

B) The BSA is primarily a Christian organization and it’s core beliefs are based on Christian values. Others may join, but they must conform to those values.

 

Seems a simple question to me, and in my mind it certainly should mean interpretation A. Unfortunately, it seems to me that National has been following interpretation B for the last few decades, which doesn't seem to be logically correct in any way I can see.

[Gone]

A question for everyone (I’d start a new pole on this if I could): The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. What does that mean to you:

A) People of all religious faiths are equally welcome, and the BSA shouldn’t favor on faith over another.

B) The BSA is primarily a Christian organization and it’s core beliefs are based on Christian values. Others may join, but they must conform to those values.

 

Seems a simple question to me, and in my mind it certainly should mean interpretation A. Unfortunately, it seems to me that National has been following interpretation B for the last few decades, which doesn't seem to be logically correct in any way I can see.

Hmmm...how so? Because I don't know of many major religions that would condone same-sex anything. I have not seen BSA tilting pro-Christian. Certainly not the way it was when us old farts were Scouts. What specific policies has BSA pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian? Just curious.

[Austin901]

leting in gays would not work with camp outs and such if this passes given 2-4 years bsa will be history thats the talk

 

[Sentinel947]

leting in gays would not work with camp outs and such if this passes given 2-4 years bsa will be history thats the talk

I challenge you to expand on your comments. Why do you believe what you believe? What indicators can you show that supports your assertion?

[Tim in NJ]

A question for everyone (I’d start a new pole on this if I could): The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. What does that mean to you:

A) People of all religious faiths are equally welcome, and the BSA shouldn’t favor on faith over another.

B) The BSA is primarily a Christian organization and it’s core beliefs are based on Christian values. Others may join, but they must conform to those values.

 

Seems a simple question to me, and in my mind it certainly should mean interpretation A. Unfortunately, it seems to me that National has been following interpretation B for the last few decades, which doesn't seem to be logically correct in any way I can see.

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's, there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.

[Gone]

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

 

[TSS_Chris]

The opposition to this is organizing. Facebook just showed me an ad for OnMyHonor.net[/url=http://www.onmyhonor.net/].

 

"OnMyHonor.net is the official coalition of concerned parents, Scout Leaders, Scouting Donors, Eagle Scouts and others affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America who are united in their support of Scouting’s timeless values and their opposition to open homosexuality in the Scouts."

Good point Basementdweller. I just took a quick look through their "Wall of Supporters", and that's probably the least diverse group of people I've seen in a long time.

 

I'm thinking it might be fun to send in my picture with an Inclusive Scouting knot on my uniform just to see what happens. http://www.inclusivescouting.net/store/. Of course, groups like this usually process irony about as well as this site processes vbCode.