Current BSA Policy Vs local option poll

[DigitalScout]

Interesting article regarding this topic. The last line in the article is the sad part. "the meetings have ceased"

 

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/public-school-boots-cub-scouts.html

The BSA receives all the downsides (bad publicity, vitriol, controversy) and none of the benefits of discrimination.

[PABill]

Interesting article regarding this topic. The last line in the article is the sad part. "the meetings have ceased" http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/public-school-boots-cub-scouts.html

 

 

"The meetings have ceased"...that will be something we hear more often than not.

 

I am kind of surprised at the thread title and discussion here "Current BSA policy VS the local option", if the BSA goes with the local option, as I understand it the protection of BSA v. Dale no longer applies. Now what? The reality is there is no local option, the lawsuits won't stop and any CO sticking to their beliefs will drop scouts en masse as soon as the first lawsuit is filed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Interesting article regarding this topic. The last line in the article is the sad part. "the meetings have ceased"

 

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/public-school-boots-cub-scouts.html

The article is not clear about who (or what) is the CO. Anyone know? It is illegal for public schools to charter BSA units. On the other hand, if this is merely an issue of access to the use of the property, then that seems to be a local matter to be settled at the state/school system level.

[scoutingagain]

"as I understand it the protection of BSA v. Dale no longer applies" The First Amendment is still the First Amendment. Under Local Option, those private COs will still have the right of free association and the right to discriminate against homosexual leaders if they choose to do so, just as they currently can do with respect to gender or religion. The only change would be if the BSA were to treat sexual orientation the way they do race or national origin.

 

As far as the article goes, it seems to me the school district might be able to limit access to facilities to all groups that do not subscribe to the school's anti-discrimination policies and those may include sexual orientation. However they would have apply the policy to all organizations that discriminated against a protected class, and could not single out the scouts alone. As pointed out, one of the consequences of being a private club that chooses to engage in descriminatory membership policies.

 

SA

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

My google-fu tells me this is likely to be Pack 3524, chartered by LDS-Cannon 5th Ward/Salt Lake Cannon Stake. Nearly all packs in Utah are chartered by LDS churches, Utah actually had the lowest percentage of units chartered by public schools back in 2005.

 

 

 

 

 

The school is almost certainly in the wrong here, even without the Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act, as it appears to go against Lamb's Chapel v. Center Moriches Union Free School Dist., Knights of the KKK v. East Baton Rouge Parish School Board, BSA v. Till, etc.

 

[ThomasJefferson]

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

 

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

 

The scout oath says:

 

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

 

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

 

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

 

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

 

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

 

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

 

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

 

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

 

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

 

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.

[Peregrinator]

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

 

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

 

The scout oath says:

 

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

 

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

 

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

 

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

 

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

 

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

 

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

 

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

 

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

 

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.

If you lie, then you are not obedient to the Scout Law, at least not as our Founder understood it. "If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge and never be allowed to wear it again."

[skeptic]

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

 

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

 

The scout oath says:

 

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

 

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

 

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

 

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

 

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

 

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

 

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

 

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

 

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

 

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.

Now, I would not have any problem with your approach, even if you stated you were an atheist directly. You are not promulgating scouts to believe as you do; rather you are referring it to its proper place, the family. You seem to respect the religious' right to have their religion. Just like the other G so discussed, you do not make it a major item for discussion or suggest that others do as you do or act. That is the way it was for years, and things went fine. And they still will if people just keep their PERSONAL lives to themselves and refuse to be drawn in by someone that wants to somehow demonize them. JMHO of course.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

 

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

 

The scout oath says:

 

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

 

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

 

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

 

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

 

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

 

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

 

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

 

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

 

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

 

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.

"That is the way it was for years, and things went fine. And they still will if people just keep their PERSONAL lives to themselves"

 

Skeptic, you keep ignoring facts that contradict you. James Dale kept his personal life away from his troop, yet when a newspaper story identified him as gay, he was kicked out. That's not "fine" in my book. Your way only works "fine" if atheists and gays never, ever reveal this fact to anyone on earth, ever.

[skeptic]

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

 

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

 

The scout oath says:

 

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

 

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

 

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

 

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

 

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

 

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

 

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

 

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

 

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

 

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.

Merlyn; Maybe I look at things too simplistically. For me, the Dale decision by the local council and National was wrong. His life away at college had no real effect on the unit to which he was still registered. Most likely, few if any members of his actual unit cared, as it had never been an issue when he was there. But, once the whole thing became public and a part of a political agenda, it was not possible to re-bottle. Just the way I have seen it from the beginning. National tried to make it less controversial by using "avowed" in the ban; but that term has pretty much been either ignored or terribly twisted by both sides of the debate. It was also meant to be related to "leaders" only; again it was extended to youth by a few illogical and extreme individuals and became just another skewed attack point. That is why I have always favored the so called local option, as only the unit really understands how something has become or is becoming a problem, no matter if it is these two political points or something else such as abuse of some sort or alcohol or drugs. Just the way I view things and what has worked in our unit for a very long time.

[Rick_in_CA]

Most likely' date=' few if any members of his actual unit cared, as it had never been an issue when he was there.[/quote']

Actually, his unit protested his removal as they wanted to keep him as a leader. Their wishes were ignored.

 

QUOTE=skeptic;n372144]It was also meant to be related to "leaders" only; again it was extended to youth by a few illogical and extreme individuals and became just another skewed attack point.

 

Actually it was the BSA in front of the supreme court that said that the rule applies to both youth and adults. It was later that thy tried to spin it by saying "leaders only".

[ThomasJefferson]

Perhaps each group will get a new uniform change' date=' or maybe just a change in their epillet colors, so you will know who to avoid if they are wearing their class A uniforms.[/quote']

 

I don't like the sound of that at all: making people wear some symbol so you can keep track of them.

 

I hope these comments about the separating conservative and progressive scouts/scouters are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Do you really believe there exists conservative people who are so anti-gay that they won't attend a camp where there *might* be gay people? Really? How do they live like that? Seriously, how to they leave their homes, shop for groceries, stay in a hotel, tour a museum, attend a concert or visit an amusement park where there might be gay people?

dkurtenbach,

 

I did not join scouts to associate with certain kinds of people. I joined scouts to do scouting activities and to earn the eagle badge. I got used to the people who were in it, the same way I get used to the people on the company softball team that I otherwise would not associate with.

 

We are not free on the company softball team to tell people they are not welcome to join it. Legally, we could. But the company feels it is mean to treat people that way. So we let anyone join it who wants to.

 

Freedom of association is the same excuse used for racism in the past. It didn't make sense then. It doesn't make sense now.

[SSScout]

Well, that changed the direction of this thread.

 

The Reverent issue is already decided. If the Scout is required (by his own integrity) to "do his duty to God", and we do not require what that duty is, then the Scout's own conscience will be the guide. If he (and /or his family: see BP's classic comment about religion) decides that his duty is to not "believe" in a higher power, or make ritual thereof, then we have done OUR duty toward the Scout.

BP did note that Scouting was "practical" Christianity, much to the consternation of some of his time's Church of England's leaders. He tried to discuss the "church of nature", but some folks didn't want to hear that, either. And BSA became a non-Christian organization.

Come to think of it, the Brit Scout Org has decided not to make religion an issue. Can morality be legislated? Another degression on the horizon....

If the Scout's duty is defined by his and/or his family's faith/church/temple/mosque, then that is his business, not ours. If his duty is defined by his own conscience, then one of two things should happen: Either 1) the Scout will self select to remain in Scouting because he sees gain in it, or 2) he will leave Scouting, because he sees a conflict of interest/belief, a hypocracy that he cannot resolve. It should not be up to a Scout leader to declare that the Scout does not belong in Scouting UNLESS his BEHAVIOR shows a betrayal of his Scout promise or non-adherance to the Scout Law. If his behavior or language (that is a behavior, yes?) is such that the Scout Leader has to point out to the Scout a certain , umm, non-conformity (?), then , yeah, there might be a problem. But need it be a "religious" problem?

[SSScout]

I just noticed something. I think this was mentioned some time ago, but since this new bulletin is kind of experimental, here goes.

Note the time stamp in the upper left corner of the post box. I am clicking "post at 10:58pm, local time click

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, that changed the direction of this thread.

 

The Reverent issue is already decided. If the Scout is required (by his own integrity) to "do his duty to God", and we do not require what that duty is, then the Scout's own conscience will be the guide. If he (and /or his family: see BP's classic comment about religion) decides that his duty is to not "believe" in a higher power, or make ritual thereof, then we have done OUR duty toward the Scout.

BP did note that Scouting was "practical" Christianity, much to the consternation of some of his time's Church of England's leaders. He tried to discuss the "church of nature", but some folks didn't want to hear that, either. And BSA became a non-Christian organization.

Come to think of it, the Brit Scout Org has decided not to make religion an issue. Can morality be legislated? Another degression on the horizon....

If the Scout's duty is defined by his and/or his family's faith/church/temple/mosque, then that is his business, not ours. If his duty is defined by his own conscience, then one of two things should happen: Either 1) the Scout will self select to remain in Scouting because he sees gain in it, or 2) he will leave Scouting, because he sees a conflict of interest/belief, a hypocracy that he cannot resolve. It should not be up to a Scout leader to declare that the Scout does not belong in Scouting UNLESS his BEHAVIOR shows a betrayal of his Scout promise or non-adherance to the Scout Law. If his behavior or language (that is a behavior, yes?) is such that the Scout Leader has to point out to the Scout a certain , umm, non-conformity (?), then , yeah, there might be a problem. But need it be a "religious" problem?

SSScout, I think the UK Scouting Association is still debating (since December) whether to officially allow atheists.