Let's put the God/morality issue to rest

[AZMike]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

Here is the link, if anyone would like to save a dollar:

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/rts.pdf

 

The 'Irreligion' section is on page 100.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

"From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn."

 

I see -- denigrating millions of people based on the prejudice of one man. I've heard that one before.

[AZMike]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

Actually, Merlyn, it was denigrating the screwed-up beliefs of millions of people, not the millions of people themselves. Beliefs are always fair game for discussion.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

You don't limit yourself to beliefs, you also draw (incorrect) conclusions about the morals of atheists.

[AZMike]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

As you and others have said that "atheism" is a simple lack of belief, not a positive belief system, and so cannot be judged on the actions of atheist governments, how can a "lack of belief" possess a system of morality?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

"how can a "lack of belief" possess a system of morality?"

 

It doesn't. People who lack a belief in a god can possess a system of morality, of course.

[AZMike]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

Of course people who lack a belief in God can possess some kind of a system of morality. Most do. Many of them are quite good people, in some respects. Their morality is just not based on whatever beliefs they commonly bring into their atheist mindset to support it, whether those beliefs include naturalism or materialism or what have you. It will be inherently subjective, and so the individual's choice of moral guidelines will be ultimately a simple aesthetic choice with no moral force compulsion. To the extent it is modeled on an objective standard it will be close to a good one, but the atheist will still be driving a car with borrowed gasoline. No offense intended.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"Atheism. There are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists. In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, well, then they are like the Germans trying to force their "kultur" on the world, they become enemies of the worst sort."

 

- Lord Baden-Powell.

 

From this, I learned that atheists are like the Weimar Republic of Life, Merlyn.

 

I read this after I went to the Visiting Nurses Auxiliary Book Sale today at the fairgrounds, and found an original copy of "Rovering to Success" by Baden-Powell for a buck. It's a book for young men (older than scouts) full of advice (quite a bit on STDs, where babies come from, how to choose a girlfriend and wife, how to choose a career, how to improve yourself, etc. - actually, pretty good advice for a young man, then and now - I would guess that the Rovering program was a young adult program of its time.). The quote above is from the chapter on "Irreligion," which B-P defines as one of the Rocks standing in the way of your path to success. (He also includes a pretty funny (well, to me, anyway) caricature of a typical atheist, that looks a great deal like Richard Dawkins.) B-P wrote that chapter as an apologetic of answers to anti-religious atheists, as well as those "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it. In some cases they have never been shown what it is; in others it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide." B-P provides some arguments based on the wonder of the natural world and the Natural Law, especially to inspire those in the latter category.

 

B-P makes the interesting point that "Some of these [atheist] societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks."

 

Probably correct, as the rise of the "New Atheism" (as well as the rise of the Internet) recently triggered a corresponding greater interest in Christian apologetics, and a greater knowledge of the answers to the simpler atheist arguments by a lot of younger believers. So out of evil, good.

 

The chapter is actually pretty good, and provides a very non-denominational series of arguments for God, although it draws on a number of very different faith traditions - Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto - and makes an apologetic use of the observation, and reverence for, nature as a way to coming to know God. If a troop wishes to discuss the "Reverent" part of the code, the sections of this chapter would make a good series of starting points, without offending anyone's particular religious beliefs.

 

 

AZMike, your religion has convinced you that religion is the only source of morality, and that your religion is the only source of real morality; a classic con job. You need to take the blinders off.

[jrush]

To be as "inclusive as possible"' date=' don't have ANY religious requirements. The very fact that the BSA has religious requirements means that some people won't meet them and be excluded. So "inclusive as possible" is nonsense. And if your unchangable source of morality never changes, why was slavery acceptable in the past but not now? Why do Christians disagree about homosexuality? Don't they all have the same unchangable god? Should gays be put to death, as your god demands? That's a pretty big stick. By the way, I can think of few things more narcissistic than believing the creator of the entire universe is a personal friend.[/quote']

 

There's a difference between "as inclusive as possible" and "totally inclusive". The BSA welcomes followers of all types of religions. Whether I'm a wiccan, a baptist or a mennonite, the BSA welcomes me. A particular CO might not, but it's the purview of a CO to accept or deny my membership in their unit. I can always register as a lone scout, or join a unit not chartered by a religious organization.

 

Merlyn, the problem with atheism is it's basic premise...that all religions are wrong because none are right. The BSA doesn't require me to worship a particular deity in a particular way; what it requires me to do is respect the beliefs of others. If I truly subscribe to a philosophy that your deity and belief system is a sham, how can I respect it? I can't. Quite frankly, the BSA should treat baptists, catholics, jews, etc who disrespect the beliefs of others the same way as well, but that's a different topic.

 

So, as the BSA has a policy of respecting each other's beliefs, excluding atheists is being as inclusive as possible.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"There's a difference between "as inclusive as possible" and "totally inclusive""

 

Not in English; to actually be as inclusive as possible would be to exclude no one.

 

"Merlyn, the problem with atheism is it's basic premise...that all religions are wrong because none are right"

 

Why isn't that a problem with religion X, that says all other religions (and atheists) are wrong because none of them are religion X?

 

"The BSA doesn't require me to worship a particular deity in a particular way; what it requires me to do is respect the beliefs of others."

 

Atheists can certainly meet that requirement too.

 

"If I truly subscribe to a philosophy that your deity and belief system is a sham, how can I respect it? I can't"

 

How can a Christian respect a Wiccan if they believe Wicca is a religion of the devil? He can't.

 

"Quite frankly, the BSA should treat baptists, catholics, jews, etc who disrespect the beliefs of others the same way as well, but that's a different topic."

 

Oh, but you're just fine with treating atheists like that, because it's impossible for them, eh? Or is it Jews? Wait, that was last century.

 

"So, as the BSA has a policy of respecting each other's beliefs, excluding atheists is being as inclusive as possible."

 

Only for bigots who paint atheists as all the same and incapable of respect. Why should I give you any respect when you clearly don't respect me?

[jrush]

Merlyn, you're not paying attention.

 

Someone who is truly atheist cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others. If he respects the beliefs of others, he grants value to their belief system, and he isn't really an atheist. He's just calling himself an atheist because it's fashionable, or he hates televangelists, or whatever. There's a difference between someone keeping their mouth shut and someone truly respecting the beliefs of others.

 

Christianity is a fine example. Yes, there are many, many christians who think wiccans, jews, buddhists, muslims, even each other are all damned to eternal hellfire and don't mind saying it loudly and frequently. Yes, I believe the BSA should exclude them too. 100%. However, there is nothing in the new testament that says all members of religion X are damned to hellfire. That's an invention of man. Same reason as to why christians gleefully persecuted jews for centuries. Jesus certainly didn't tell them to. But, there is no requirement that to be a Christian, you MUST consider all other religions to be false...there is only the requirement that you accept Jesus as your savior and that He lights the way towards salvation. I can respect wicca, islam, judeaism, etc without following them. Anyone who says they are Christian but does not respect the beliefs of others is doing so out of ignorance and/or prejudice. Just my opinion.

 

That being said, that's a seperate discussion. The discussion here is that atheists DO subscribe to the phiolosphy that ALL religions are false, and if you consider my religion to be false as a matter of doctrine, you cannot respect it. You can't do your best to do your Duty to God, because as an atheist, you won't even try. No atheist can try and still be an atheist. If you ARE trying, you're not an atheist anymore. You're undecided. "Undecided" is just fine with the BSA. A struggling wiccan, christian, jew, muslim or buddhist can still be doing his or her best.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"Merlyn, you're not paying attention."

 

Yes, I am. You're clearly bigoted against atheists.

 

"]Someone who is truly atheist cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others"

 

Someone who is truly Jewish cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Catholic cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Muslim cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

 

Bigot.

 

You are a PERFECT example of how the BSA encourages bigotry against atheists. And people criticized ME for removing school-sponsored BSA units...

[packsaddle]

jrush, you are not an atheist. But you seem to think you KNOW about atheism. Moreover, you have just categorized atheists as if they are some monolithic group with exactly the characteristics you just mentioned. Is that REALLY what you meant to do? Do you really KNOW that this is a fair characterization of all atheists?

If so, I would like to understand how you know these things?

If not, then you must be able to understand why Merlyn takes exception to what you wrote.

[Brewmeister]

I'm sure that some atheists respect the beliefs of others, but the one who posts here most prolifically is an anti-theist who prefers to denigrate religious beliefs as being foolish worship of a "magic man in the clouds." Hardly respectful or tolerant.