Let's put the God/morality issue to rest

[jpstodwftexas]

Each Person's Duty to God is defined by their own personal belief..A southern Baptist's Duty is not the Same as an Orthodx Jew's...nor is theirs the Same as a United Methodist..or theirs as a latter Day Saints...yu get the picture

 

However every Member Youth or Adult must be willing to say the Scout Oath and Law and attempt to adhere to it to the best of their ability

...ie raise their right hand and make the Scout Sign and Say the Scout law and Oath. If ya can not do it...find somewhere else to have fun..

 

I never tried to change the program to fit my needs. I attend a Church on Scout Sunday if I can....thats about it..I personally don't believe in an Organized Religion.

[Eagledad]

Ah Merlyn, you're on a boat without a rudder at the mercy of moralities turbulent waters. No better peace than your hand on a tiller to navigate yourself around the guys the big sticks.

 

The BSAs answer to your direct question is treat others with the same chacater as god. In this case, trust, loyal, serving, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave clean, and reverent. That is the direct answer to your direct question and peace in the world.

 

By the way, I have a rudder you can borrow.

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"That is the direct answer to your direct question and peace in the world."

 

That must be why religious people never go to war against each other. BWAHAHAHAHA!

 

 

 

"Ah Merlyn, you're on a boat without a rudder at the mercy of moralities turbulent waters."

 

Well no, but you're missing my point entirely.

 

A Deist is perfectly acceptable to the BSA, and a Deist or a scout who takes his god to be "a rock or a stream" can make up his morality just like an atheist can.

They have no rudder either, yet somehow you don't say they aren't fit for the BSA.

 

You have no answer to that.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Well no, you are missing my point entirely

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>>You have no answer to that.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Of course I have an answer, but as you can see, my computer is struggling with this new reply field.

[Second Class]

Merlyn,

The BSA allows a member to follow their god, not mine. How that members god defines acceptable food (behavior) is between that member and his god.

Another member and his god may have a different view on that same subject.

But you know that; you're just being thick to be argumentative.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Second Class, Eagledad suggested an obviously false "reason" for excluding atheists; it's obviously false because some theists who are acceptable to the BSA can derive and have morals that are exactly the same as an atheist, yet they are not rejected. It's like someone defending a club that excludes Jews by saying it's because they can't eat bacon, but the same club admits Muslims and vegetarians, neither of which eats bacon either, which shows that the "reason" for excluding Jews is nonsensical. The BSA excludes atheists for no reason except animus towards atheists; it can't have anything to do with an atheist's morals because they allow other people who are theists who can have identically-derived morals. Eagledad's reason is just a non-excuse for discriminating against atheists.

[Eagledad]

It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick.

 

Barry

Although it's probably a dangerous thing to presume to speak for Merlyn, I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind. I suppose I fall into that category. I believe that "creation" was set in motion by a higher power (which for the sake of convention, I call God), but I believe very little else of what organized religions believe. Among the things I don't believe is that God gave us moral commands; I believe that for better or for worse, we came up with those ourselves. So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't, and I do.

[packsaddle]

It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick.

 

Barry

I am fascinated by persons who claim that without the dictates of a supernatural power, they are unable to figure out a moral code on their own.

As far as the rock god goes, I'm ok with people worshiping a rock. I'm especially glad that BSA approves membership for those who do. But should anyone point to a rock on the ground and try to convince me that THAT rock is a greater source of morality than human intellect, I'll have to make the distinction that while it may be true for 'their' intellect, it isn't for mine.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick.

 

Barry

Eagledad, a Deist who believes in a god that has NOTHING to do with humanity has to make up his own morals just like an atheist. And as for a rock, the BSA doesn't require that the scout believes the rock to be omnipotent, either -- that's a requirement YOU are adding to support your false reasoning.

 

"God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging"

 

That's YOUR god, that's not what the BSA requires. Stop adding nonexistent requirements.

 

"so by default he is the final authority on morality"

 

Again, that's YOUR god, a Deist's god can be COMPLETELY UNCONCERNED about morals, or even not be aware that humans exist at all. You continue to make up requirements for other people's gods to support your false reasoning.

 

"Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along."

 

EXACTLY like a Deist. So why aren't Deists rejected?

 

"Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick."

 

No, that's not morality, that's just an enforcer, and your god is the typical theistic enforcer with the biggest stick possible. Or do you deny hell?

[Eagledad]

>>I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind.<<

 

No NJ, what he is saying is the BSA is hypocritical to give God all the credit when some foks just make it up during their morning coffee and pass it off as god's. And I agree except that the BSA doesn’t pick any particular god. They leave that up to the scout.

 

>>So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't.<<

 

I’m surprised by the ignorance and pride of that statement because I assume you to be an educated man. I doubt even Merlyn agrees because it’s been the reality of American culture until recently and part of the BSA since the beginning. You probably also think it was a mere coincidence the BSA put God first on the list for who the scout promises his duty in the Scout Oath. I can only imagine your ignorance is from a lack of education on American Judeo/Christian history. That you don’t agree with the BSA is fine NJ, but to suggest the BSA didn’t do it on purpose is like saying red was never really red, it’s blue.

 

Admittedly I don’t understand how someone can claim god was powerful enough to create the universe but is incapable of a relationship with man.

 

Barry

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>>I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind.<<

 

No NJ, what he is saying is the BSA is hypocritical to give God all the credit when some foks just make it up during their morning coffee and pass it off as god's. And I agree except that the BSA doesn’t pick any particular god. They leave that up to the scout.

 

>>So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't.<<

 

I’m surprised by the ignorance and pride of that statement because I assume you to be an educated man. I doubt even Merlyn agrees because it’s been the reality of American culture until recently and part of the BSA since the beginning. You probably also think it was a mere coincidence the BSA put God first on the list for who the scout promises his duty in the Scout Oath. I can only imagine your ignorance is from a lack of education on American Judeo/Christian history. That you don’t agree with the BSA is fine NJ, but to suggest the BSA didn’t do it on purpose is like saying red was never really red, it’s blue.

 

Admittedly I don’t understand how someone can claim god was powerful enough to create the universe but is incapable of a relationship with man.

 

Barry

Sorry Eagledad, NJCubScouter had it right.

 

"what he is saying is the BSA is hypocritical to give God all the credit when some foks just make it up during their morning coffee and pass it off as god's."

 

You still aren't getting it; I'm not addressing the BSA, I'm addressing YOUR rationalization for the BSA's exclusion of atheists, which can't be right because the BSA doesn't exclude other people for the same reasons -- only atheists.

 

"Admittedly I don’t understand how someone can claim god was powerful enough to create the universe but is incapable of a relationship with man"

 

Uh, nobody said "incapable". I'm capable of sticking peanuts up my nose, I just don't have any reason to do so. Some people believe in gods that don't CARE about humans, or have a nonintervention policy, or any number of other reasons not to interact with humans in any way. Yet people who believe in such gods are still OK by BSA standards, so your suggested reason for excluding atheists doesn't hold water.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>>I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind.<<

 

No NJ, what he is saying is the BSA is hypocritical to give God all the credit when some foks just make it up during their morning coffee and pass it off as god's. And I agree except that the BSA doesn’t pick any particular god. They leave that up to the scout.

 

>>So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't.<<

 

I’m surprised by the ignorance and pride of that statement because I assume you to be an educated man. I doubt even Merlyn agrees because it’s been the reality of American culture until recently and part of the BSA since the beginning. You probably also think it was a mere coincidence the BSA put God first on the list for who the scout promises his duty in the Scout Oath. I can only imagine your ignorance is from a lack of education on American Judeo/Christian history. That you don’t agree with the BSA is fine NJ, but to suggest the BSA didn’t do it on purpose is like saying red was never really red, it’s blue.

 

Admittedly I don’t understand how someone can claim god was powerful enough to create the universe but is incapable of a relationship with man.

 

Barry

PS: By the way, the BSA doesn't require that the god a scout believes in has created the universe, for that matter. As far as I can tell, the BSA has NO requirements or properties of any kind that a god must meet in order to be acceptable.

(for some reason, I can't add this to my previous comment; the editor fails saying I exceeded the time limit to change the title .. ?)