Pilmont mess

[scoutdad]

Good day all!

 

I have a problem and I would appreciate some advice. We have a crew going to Philmont next year. One of the boys has dropped out. This may require an adult to drop out because there is now only 4 boys and 4 adults. The boy that dropped never paid any money but the troop forwarded payments based on his participation. SM (who is going) is really hot about this kid. In SM minute last night he referred to an untrustworthy scout causing an adult to not go to Philmont. Kid says he never was real interested in going, but he did say he would go if he could find the money(back in December 02). The initial payment (from the participants) of $75, which is considered the "hard yes"(yes Im going and heres my money to prove it) was taken out of his scout account in December of 02. The kid says his parents (divorced) cant afford to send him and his summer jobs fell though this year. To date $195 has been taken out of his account but it is over drawn by $108. Last month he received a detailed printout of all transaction on his account and this was the first he knew that money was being taken out for Philmont. At no point have the parents agreed to allow their son to go to philmont (In fact they may not even know anything about it).

 

The question one- is this kid liable for the lost funds due to his non-participation. Question two- if he is not liable does the troop (or crew) owe him back the funds already taken from his account.

 

YIS

Scoutdad

 

[Bob White]

To blame a boy for an adult not being able to participate in a scout event seems sort of backwards doesn't it? I mean who is here for whom?

 

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle]

Two things, maybe separate, maybe not

 

As I read the calendar, its almost October 1, 2003. I generally dont like to make assumptions, but I figure the earliest this trip can come off is June 1, 2004. Thats 8 months from now. The troop is sure it can't find another willingly participant in 8 months? The money is already paid, if another scout comes in, he pays the amount to the troop, the errant scouts account is credited and all is well. If the troop cant come up with another scout, how about in the district, a boy known to troop members, a brother OA member? What about in the Council? There is no scout in the Council that would like to go to Philmont as a "Provisional" member of a crew? Lets not hack up the errant scout before all options are exhausted.

 

Now, to whose "fault" it is, when dealing with large outlays of cash, such as a trip like this, a monthly or even bi monthly report on the status of their trip account would help eliminate these kind of situations. And you dont have parental permission slip? What if the parents say no, and the kid has the trip fully funded, then what?

 

[Fat Old Guy]

While it may be true that we are "doing this for the boys," if it wasn't fun for us, we wouldn't do it for anyone. Also, the adult may have had to schedule vacation time in advance and now has to change plans all sorts of plans.

 

It is just downright inconsiderate of the Scout.

 

As for the parents, don't get me going . . . too late. I get sooooo tired of listening to parents complaining about expenses Scouting, bicycle helmets, braces and how they can't afford anything when they smoke a pack a day.

[scoutdad]

"To blame a boy for an adult not being able to participate in a scout event seems sort of backwards doesn't it? I mean who is here for whom?"

 

But this is the SM's vaction we are talking about here. With the SM and another adult going who neither have a son going, the crew needs boys without with an attached adult.

 

Just to be clear, I agree whole heartedly with you BW. What I need is a clear defense for a course of action. I believe that without any indication from the kid's parents in support of participation that there was no "contract". The least I would expect to prove support would have been a check from them for $75 marked "philmont trip". There being none, there was no agreement and hense the initial $75 and the next $120 taken from his account without his expressed approval was improper and should be returned.

 

I would add that in the future we should have a Application/agreement prepared that spells out the trip, dates, cost,and payment schedule. Both the youth and parents would sign. On the back I would have a worksheet where each party would detail how they would help fund the trip. Troop- fundraisers that could be applied, Youth- jobs and other sources of income,and parents- how much support they would provide. In one form would be the agreement and the plan to make it happen. But that's for the next time, I still have this mess to deal with.

 

Thanks BW

YIS

Scoutdad

 

P.S. Will take 2nd weekend of Woodbadge this weekend. Love it! I'm a Bob White, and a good old one too!

[Bob White]

"While it may be true that we are "doing this for the boys," if it wasn't fun for us, we wouldn't do it for anyone."

 

I am not sure if I agree with that or not, only because I have no idea what it means.

 

I'm with OGE (surprise), without parents permission (whether they are smokers or not), the money should not have been sent in. Plus, there is still time to recruit another scout.

 

Do not be angry at this scout because of questionable adult administration. It sounds as though the SM was so focused on going himself that he rushed the registration.

 

Bob White

[Eagledad]

Good morning All

 

>>The least I would expect to prove support would have been a check from them for $75 marked "philmont trip". There being none, there was no agreement

[CubsRgr8]

It is really inappropriate for the SM to vent about this situation in a SM minute - as if everyone didn't know just who he was talking about. In fact, I'm appalled! The scout may not have acted very trustworthy, but I challenge the SM to explain how this was courteous, kind, or friendly!

[Fat Old Guy]

"I am not sure if I agree with that or not, only because I have no idea what it means"

 

That doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Laurie]

I agree with CubsRgr8. That was over the top. Taking the boy aside and pointing out his verbal commitment and how it effected others would have been ok--a teaching moment. But this was public humiliation

 

As for the money issue. The troop my son is in doesn't count anyone as going, whether it costs $10 or $200, unless they have a signed permission slip and payment or have made financial arrangements. The boys are given reminders at the closing of the meeting that if going, they need to get their permission slip in by the deadline. This avoids all sorts of problems, and I'm surprised that with a trip this big, the communication wasn't better.

[scoutdad]

Eagledad-

 

Sorry for sounding a little legalistic with my plan, but problems arise out of poorly communicated expectations. For now with this adult leadership, clearly spelling out expectations would be helpful. As for the fund rasing, that is an important part of the trip and as I have outlined might be a good growing experience for the scouts in planning and saving.

 

This is not the only scout to drop out. Another scout droped in Jan or Feb after dad paid the $75 in Dec. My son recruited his best friend into scouts in Jan. (he's 14 or 15) and the SM hit him up to go right away. He said yes but parents said no way. Some how this isn't getting through to the SM because he thinks this kid still is obigated too. My son was interested in being added on to the crew in Aug, but the SM wants to do a really difficult trek. My son has never backpacked and since his best friends have dropped out of the trek he lost interest. So all three of them are being scapgoated over this.

 

Yis

Scoutdad

[FScouter]

A Philmont trek is so cool. Every boy should have a chance to go sometime before he turns 18. The boy just doesn't really understand what a Philmont trek is all about. There is a recruiting video you can probably borrow from your council. Show that video at a troop meeting and you'll fill your trek and have a waiting list.

[mk9750]

When a group of our boys decide they are doing a high venture trip, they elect an crew leader. One of his responsibilites is to plan and lead a crew meeting that includes the parents of potential crew members. At the meeting all of the expectations of each member of the crew is discussed, including payment schedules. We've kicked around requiring at least the initial down payment being made in real money (cash or check instead of out of a Scout account), but we've never been stung yet, so that hasn't been initiated, but it might be a good idea.

 

We've never done the alternate idea before, but we've never had someone drop out either. We did have a tough time filling the last spot of a second crew that went to Tinnerman this summer, but one of the boys asked if he could invite a friend from another Troop. That boy came and had a great time.

 

I agree with most everything said here. SM over reacted, and could have used the oppurtunity to teach instead of embarass. you've got a great oppurtunity to involve someone else, either that terrific up and comer who is just short of qualifying for the trip, or someone from out of the Troop. I do believe that the boy should be responsible for part of the cost, just to teach that irresponsiblity has consequences. Maybe the first $75.00. but after that, unless someone else has to pay the difference and not get any benefit from it, I'd say let the kid off the hook.

 

I think FOG is right, that if this wasn't fun for the adults, it would be tough to get adults to go. BUT, if we don't know and accept that sometimes there will be sacrifices, we're in the long line of volunteer work. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

 

Mark

[Eamonn]

Seems to me that a lot of the basics were not covered to start with.

While Philmont is a great place, it may not be where every Scout wants to go.

Sometime back our district activities committee went with a Hiking Camporee, the Chairman belongs to a troop that does a lot of hiking. Sad to say the other troops are not that way and the camporee was not the greatest.

For a leader to pick and choose a hard trek just because he wants to do it, is just not right.

Sometime back there was a lot of talk in these forums about " The Troop I serve."

When we forget that we are only here to serve the wants and needs of the youth. It is time to give it up.

There have been Scouts who have dropped out of trips and events, in most cases they know before hand what the consequences are. Be that the loss of the deposit or in some cases the entire amount of money. This is explained to the parent at the very start.

It seems that this was not done in this case.

In fact it seems as if we have a Scoutmaster who is running a program with only himself in mind.

As for any adult picking on a Scout.

This is plain Bull.

Eamonn

[Laurie]

"As for any adult picking on a Scout.

This is plain Bull."

 

Eamonn, you don't agree that the leader was picking on the Scout when he did a SM minute that addressed the issue?