Columbine had an armed Guard

[Eagle732]

Beav, I support 2 year mandatory military service.

 

moose, NO, what I'm saying is people site the Columbine incident as proof that armed guards don't work. I say they do and in fact if you would read the timeline you would see that it in fact did. However typical PD SOPs (standard operating procedure) at that time was to wait until SWAT arrived, have them formulated a plan, and entered to neutralize the situation. Today the typical PD SOP is when two officers arrive they enter. No waiting, more dangerous for the cops but hey that's what they get paid for.

 

I know this because half of my family are cops, I'm the lone firefighter in the bunch.

[CalicoPenn]

New York City - Empire State Building. Police shootout with gunman results in 9 bystanders injured - most shot by the police. If the police, trained to shoot, can end up shooting other people, what makes us think people who don't train on a regular basis will do any better?

 

What happens once we arm all these teachers and another incident happens with the armed teacher responding by shooting back - what happens to to the teacher that kills a couple of kids while trying to kill tha bad guy? Do we just chalk up that loss of life as "collateral damage" and move on? If you're a parent and say yes, then please do us all a favor - give your kids to the state right now, you don't deserve to have kids.

[Papadaddy]

My wife works in an elementary school, and I know most of the staff. Asking them to pack heat is a scary thought indeed. I am not in favor of arming teachers and staff. It needs to be trained LEO only. I think the money needs to be spent to fortify the entrances...once the buses unload, the doors are locked down and no one gets in unless they are expected. And if a parent comes to get their child, they wait in the office with no access to the rest of the school. That will prevent parents and grandparents from eating lunch with their child, which is a common occurrence.

[Eagle732]

"New York City - Empire State Building. Police shootout with gunman results in 9 bystanders injured - most shot by the police. If the police, trained to shoot, can end up shooting other people, what makes us think people who don't train on a regular basis will do any better? "

 

Well Calico if you're insinuating that NYPD are such poor shots that they shot 9 people I think you would be wrong. When we dig into the facts we find that two were killed, the shooter (by the police) and his targeted victim (by the perp). Nine bystanders received non-life threatening injuries by bullet FRAGMENTS caused by NYPD bullets striking solid objects.

 

http://tribune.com.pk/story/425937/shoot-out-two-die-in-empire-state-building-shooting/

 

Stuff happens when your in a shootout in a crowded urban setting. Of course in Utopia these things would never happen.

[Brewmeister]

Wasn't there an "assault weapons" ban in place when Columbine happened?

 

Yup.

[nldscout]

One thing no one has pointed out is that all of these mass school shooting happen in small towns. A lot of larger urban school already have guards and metal detectors present in there schools.

 

Urban schools have been dealing with guns and other weapons for years now and know how to deal with these issues.

 

Small town america needs to change like they did years ago.

[Beavah]

Wasn't there an "assault weapons" ban in place when Columbine happened?

 

Yah, sure.

 

Perhaps that was da reason that Harris and Klebold weren't able to get access to that sort of weapon, and had to settle for shotguns and semi-auto handguns.

 

nldscout makes a good point that da mental health / disaffected teen / mass shooting thing has been a suburban / rural school "white" problem, eh? I'm readin' some speculation among da psychologists that in da smaller schools, being socially marginalized is both easier and has a bigger impact on kids. It does raise other questions about what other cultural factors or pressures may be in play.

 

Beavah

 

[Venividi]

Anyone that truly believes that having an armed guard or one (or more) teachers with a concealed weapon will stop or even deter a shooter, please raise your hand. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could believe NRA's recommendation could be effective. There are just too many opportunities to simply take the same actions against students without actually entering the school or stepping on school grounds.

 

Perhaps outside recess should be banned, no outdoor sporting events allowed, and flanks of teachers at the beginning and end of the day as the students are escorted to and from buses?

 

[Venividi]

"Hmmm, which teacher is carrying concealed? Is it the principle [sic], the gym teacher, the librarian, or is is it the history teacher? "

 

I don't think it matters. Seems that those individuals that have done these atrocities expected to be killed, or took their own lives. I therefore doubt that not knowing who might or might not be armed would be a deterrent.

[moosetracker]

Venividi - you forget hijacking a loaded school bus enroute to the school, perhap at one of it's last few stops. That should take out 20 or more kids. Perhaps police on every bus is in order, or lets arm the bus driver. I am sure after years of driving with loud obnoxious kids all of them are still sane and reasonable enough to carry a gun with them.

[Eagle732]

I guess none of you remember Clinton's 2000 "Cops in Schools" program. How crazy was that? Providing funding to local school districts so they can put cops in schools. That's just stupid!

[Brewmeister]

>>Perhaps that was da reason that Harris and Klebold weren't able to get access to that sort of weapon, and had to settle for shotguns and semi-auto handguns.

 

How convenient that you forget to mention the Hi-Point 995 semi-auto carbine rifle Eric brought with him, along with 13 10-round magazines. Interestingly it is a gun made during the period of the 1994 assault weapons ban...

 

 

(This message has been edited by brewmeister)

[scoutingagain]

"Well, if we follow the logic being espoused lately that one=all, we "...would all walk around with a personal armed guard.

 

As usual, in the extreme politics of the day, we get absurd arguments from both sides and nothing really get accomplished.

 

My thoughts:

 

1. When law enforcement response in minutes is insufficient there needs to be some ability for local school staff to respond ASAP. This doesn't mean arming or requiring all teachers to be armed. That's an absurd notion. Having an armed LEO at each school would be nice, but probably not realisic given the financial resources available to most school districts. And please don't talk about volunteers. If there is a someone with a weapon around school children I want a fully trained professional not some Rambo wannabe. I'd support the idea of training one or two teachers as auxilliary LEOs with supplemental pay just like they do for the football coach or drama advisor. They could train during the summers and would need to demonstrate competence to the satisfaction of local police. Our High School Principal is a former marine, and I have no doubt given the proper training he could be trusted with a weapon, I would prefer a hand gun. The school responder does not necessarily need to take the attacker out, but sufficiently engage and distract the individual long enough for local LEO to show up.

 

2. Mental Health care and recognition needs to be studied. The association between violent video games and mass shootings need to be looked at. Improvements need to be made in limiting access to weapons for those under treatment. If your Doctor can say you can't drive due to mental health concerns he/she should be able to due the same for access to firearms.

 

3. In another thread someone noted that criminals and crazies hardly ever use fully automatic weapons. Either this is because there is an effective means of keeping these weapons out of the hands of criminals and crazies or the criminals and crazies don't use them simply because they don't want them. After all the counter argument is that if they really want them their going to get them. Well, I highly doubt that criminals and crazies don't use fully automatic weapons because they don't want them, although I have never taken a poll to find out. But we need to recognize it is possible to limit access to certain classes of weapons and ammunition throught the legislative process. We need to limit access to military style semi-automatice weapons and hi-capacity magazines. These are not needed for sport, hunting or legitimate self defense.

 

4. Private gun sales need to be banned. Purchases should only be through licensed dealerships where every prospective buyer undergoes a criminal and mental health background check.

 

5. Ownership comes with responsibilities including training on use and security of weapons.

 

 

 

Just some random thoughts.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Eagle732 - First off Clintons COPS in schools was not an armed guard program, They may have been partially for security, but equally as a community outreach program, they were to serve as coaches and mentors.. Also this was not Clintons sole response to the issue of guns. Clinton he also promoted and signed, two major pieces of gun control legislation, the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban. So his attitude was not simple the answer to the gun problem is more guns..

 

Perhaps you forget who thought the Clinton program was a bad idea, who thought it would add to a police state and during the Bush administration who defunded it..

 

I missed this until just now. I knew that NRA was being a little thick-headed about the fact the government doesn't have money sticking out of their ears to add on a new program. Although it registered the sale of new guns would benefit their main benefactors gun manufactures, that I did not miss. But, I missed the fact that there proposed "National School Shield Emergency Response Program" wasn't just an "on-paper" here is what to do. But more of a pay us lots of money from your oh so wealth of tax dollars, and we will be happy to train all these new school cops. Using a tragedy for profit just went up about 3 notches for them.

[Eagle732]

Sounds to me like the NRA is going to develop the program and pay for training.

 

Hutchinson will lead this effort as National Director of the National School Shield Program, with a BUDGET PROVIDED BY THE NRA of whatever scope the task requires, LaPierre said. His experience as a U.S. Attorney, director of the Drug Enforcement Agency and Undersecretary of the Department of Homeland Security will give him the knowledge and expertise to HIRE the most knowledgeable and credentialed experts available anywhere, to get this program up and running from the first day forward.

 

I don't think the NRA is going to force anyone to take part in their program. Unlike Sen. Diane Feinstein who wants to confiscate firearms currently legally owned.

 

I thought we were suppose to consider all ideas in solving this problem. Here's a group putting their money where their mouth is and your complaining.

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)