NRA -are they Serious?!?

[Beavah]

Perhaps in your area, voter suppression is an issue but in my area it is voter fraud.

 

Yah, sure, if your area is in your own mind.

 

What documented cases of systematic voter fraud to you actually have in your area?

 

Da documented cases of systematic efforts at voter suppression were well adjudicated in courts across da several states.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

Again, when the Democratic party suppressed the vote of blacks was pre-JFK when the Democratic party was the party of the south and of the KKK. Now the party of the South is the Republicans. It's the party who champion suppressing the blacks, Latios, certain non-christian religious groups and anyone else who is "different". Take a look at who was in the audiences of this years National Conventions. The Democratic party was so diverse it almost look like a costume ball, while the republicans had to scope out and zoom in on the one or two blacks at their convention.

 

I get alot of what you say Beavah, but I hope rural doesn't die. I like rural, and would hate the whole country to be one great big concrete slap. My only hope is that the young who are predomantly voting Democrate, blacks, hispanics etc. Do start moving out this way. I know I did partly because I wasn't rich and if I wanted to own a home, it was cheaper in the country. Of course that was pre-gas prices zooming upwards. Anyway, making the rural area more diverse is a much better future scenario for me, then making the whole country one huge concrete slap of city.

 

With voter suppression/voter fraud in the Democratic camp, at least for photo id there are two camps. One who just don't like it and one who doesn't like the way Republicans attempted to make it very difficult for the urban poor to comply, but is fine if the urban poor was allowed easier ways to comply. I belong to the camp of it is fine, if the plan was rolled out fairly.

 

But, your of the Republican poll watchers who were taught to intimidate, then sent around the country. No word for it except for voter suppression.

 

Your voter registry purges, attempts especially turning up the heat to purge the books weeks before the election, so there wouldn't be accurate checking done, or a voter had a short time to prove citizenship if challenged. Voter Suppression.

 

Shortening days for voting, reducing polling machines in urban areas and lenthening the ballot to rediculous lenthens.. All voter suppression..

 

You know I could go on for pages because I have in the past.

 

Beavah - This election they did get some good examples of voter fraud, all from the Republican party. Strange the Republicans do not want to turn a spotlight on them though.

 

But busing a bunch of blacks into Maine to vote fraudulently Democratic was not something the Democrats did. If you are going to create fraud you do it in a swing state, not one solidl blue or solidly red.. The crime of the blacks this election was simply they came out to vote in a larger percentage then any other group, including hispanics who were I think the second highest percentage. Hispanics simply got the spotlight for their voting turnout because they are now a larger percentage of the minority groups.

 

A nation who is becoming a majority of the minorities. I am fine with our country becoming that.

 

 

[vol_scouter]

Moose,

 

You are joking, right? Only suppression of blacks voting in the south by democrats was pre-JFK? That is utter nonsense. The sixties was marked by southern democrats opposing integration, supporting the KKK at the very least by going easy on prosecution though some were members, etc. Do you not know about George Wallace? What about Robert Byrd who was a member of the KKK? Total nonsense. Part of the reason that I am a republican is because of the manner that the democrat party treated minorities and women.

[Brewmeister]

Sadly, she's not joking, and her argument is a common attempt to rewrite history.

 

Let me summarize it for you. The way it works is that when democrats were racist in the past, they were really closet republicans. When republicans championed civil rights legislation that democrats opposed, those republicans were really the equivalent of democrats. After all, we all know that Ronald Reagan's positions would make him a progressive democrat today. So that means that all the racist sentiment today, which is defined as "when someone white says something critical about the actions taken by anyone of color," must be republican. Modern democrats of course cannot be racist, especially when they say and do things that are.

 

Hope that helps.

[moosetracker]

No, it is simply the migration of the Republican party from being the party that represented the north, to being the party that represented the south. And the Democratic party from being the party that championed the ideas of the South to being the one that represented Northern ideas. No closet Republican or closet Democrat in the bunch. As the ideas of the parties shifted, the people shifted parties to attach themselves to what represented their ideas the best. It is a very simple concept.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, you guys are funny, eh?

 

Da South was solidly Democrat from da civil war reconstruction until the civil rights era. You bet, da southern Democrats were a racist bunch. They felt betrayed by the northern Democrats over civil rights issues, and da Republican party recruited 'em.

 

Da history is epitomized by Strom Thurmond and da rest of da Dixiecrats, eh? They started as Democrats, but left over civil rights and ended up in da modern Republican party.

 

Beavah

 

[Brewmeister]

It is always amazing to see the mental machinations people go through to deny the black and white--pardon the expression--evidence of history. Whatever helps you folks sleep at night, I guess.

[moosetracker]

Us an the majority of black voters who are solidly Democrat due to history (even before Obama), sleep fine without doctoring history.

 

But, if you want to tell yourself the Democrats are still the main party controlling the South and the Republicans are the Northern party, because absoulutely nothing happened to change things. You go right ahead.

 

Take a look at how the courting and winning of the teaparty to the Republican party is causing the mass exodus, of moderate Republicans (like Beavah) from your party. First the welcome as Republicans saw it as an increase in membership, then as they started changing the Republican policies and values the inner turmoil of the moderates against the teaparty group, that is still going on and will go on for a while. Meanwhile, some are leaving the party lines, and waiting to see who will win the fight. If the teaparty group does, they wont be back and more will leave as they give up the fight. If the moderates do, some of the moderate Republicans will be back, but who knows where the teapartiers will go. Settle in or try to form a third party, or just return to not voting for either party. Right now their is a civil war within your party until the group can decide on a common theme..

 

This is what happened in the 60's & 70's to both the Democratic party and Republican party. It was not an overnight thing, but civil war within the parties.. I suspect what vol_scouter reports of the Democrats fighting the civil rights, was the old Democratics wrestling to regain control of the old Democratic party and keep things as they had been. They lost the battle, but when they went into the Republican party, they didn't just increase their membership as the Republicans hoped, but brought their baggage, which changed the Republican party in a way that Northerners then didn't feel comfortable and left it for the Democratic party. As they became more predominate in the Democratic party, their viewpoints also changed the Democratic parties values and policies. It took a long time and several alterations of both parties to be where we are today. Teaparty, is causing the Republicans to still evolve and change. I am sure something soon will come along to put a kink in where Democrats are now today, perhaps as moderate Republicans convert to Democrat as the move from the teaparty their values & concerns will have the Democratic party start to evovole and change soon.

 

But, you keep telling yourself that you are the party that supports the civil rights of the blacks and other minorities.. The blacks and latinos and other minorities just are not buying your interpretation of your party history.. I just don't know why..

[Brewmeister]

First off, it's not "my" party. I'm not a republican. Nor a tea partier.

 

The republican party is doomed because conservatism as a philosophy can no longer succeed in this country. The message of individual responsibility is simply no longer attractive. And without conservatism, the Republican party is simply Democrat-light, nibbling around the margins of policy while doling out its own brand of entitlement programs and corporate welfare.

 

The other problem is messaging, which the democrats are experts at. They have successfully whitewashed history--how many people would know they were on the wrong side of the civil rights movement? At the same time, today they have made it impossible for minorities to be aligned with the Republican party but be "genuine." It is absolutely amazing to watch...criticism of Susan Rice for her actions is "racist," yet cartooning Condoleeza Rice as an Aunt Jemimah is cool. And which party has the only black Senator currently serving? But of course he is just a "token." It is a brilliant and effective strategy.

 

So yes, I will agree with you that the Republican party is likely doomed for various reasons, among them being that democrats have claimed the mantel of supporting equal opportunity despite a party history that proves otherwise. We are looking at effectively one party rule for the foreseeable future.

[moosetracker]

I doubt it will go to one party rule. It will just be the question of if the Republicans come out of the quagmire to find a message that is acceptable to current society, or if one of the libertine parties will find a way to rise up to take it's place and the Republicans will take a seat in history with the Whigs.

 

A lot of the "entitlement" programs Republicans want to kill and Democrats now support originated out of Republican ideas. Republicans message did not use to be "Your on your own". It is just the programs they were for use to be ones the could foresee a fiscally smart outcome (like universal health care once initiated is suppose to stop the rising expense of health care.) Democratic programs were from the heart with little concern of costs, Republican programs were from the mind.. The new Republican messaging of "Your on your own" is from neither the heart or the mind.

 

Like most things in history, civil rights is accredited to the President we had when it was created, especially if he campaigned and championed the cause. JFK was a Democratic president who championed the cause. The rest of the country was just in turmoil individually over if you supported it or not regardless of party affiliations. As Beavah stated, the southern Democrats felt betrayed, the Northern Democrats supported JFK and civil war over the issue was fought WITHIN the political party over it.. Republicans were free to side with conscious or constituents, probably also dividing mostly north pro/south against any way they were minor players in the battle. So no ALL Democrats were not on the wrong side of history in the civil rights movement. The southern Democrats lost the fight, moved into the Republican party, and changed that party due to their views, which then had Northern Republicans move out to the Democratic party.

 

When the dust cleared, Democratic party had moved north, Republican party had moved south, and the people held the same viewpoints they always did, the majority of Southerners being still against civil rights for blacks and minorities, they were now just Republicans not Democrats.

 

In the end JFK was the Democratic president who fought for civil rights, and the majority of the people who fought alongside him were predominantly from the northern part of the country. Currently the Democratic party is solid in the northern part of the country. Therefore the Democrats win the credit in the history books for the civil rights movement and to this day are known to champion the rights of minorities.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Moose, I challenge you to provide us with a quote (in context) from a Republican saying, "you're on your own". Are you mistaking "taking personal responsibility" with you're on your own? Those are two different things.

 

As far as finding a message that is acceptable to current society, that will be hard when the other party woos voters with a "free" cradle to grave care program. Many people will take the easy route everytime only to find a cliff around the next bend. Think Greece. All of these entitlement programs actually come with a real hard dollar cost. Eventually, the bill comes due and you have two choices. One is to tax people even more than you are. The other is kill the program because you can't pay for it. Either scenario ends up with riots i nthe streets with people demanding that the government who sold them of cradle to grave care belly up to the bar and keep providing it. After all, they deserve it. they have come to expect it. Promising to kiss all your boo boo's and make it all better is a great sales pitch that wins votes and is hard to overcome with a message of being self reliant. We teach "be prepared" to our scouts. The personal responsibility message of the Republican party is the same thing, just stated in different words.

[moosetracker]

Yeah.. "Taking personal responsibility" is a softer messaging to meaning the same thing as youre on your own.

 

Your messaging does not always come out of the mouths of your politicians. I can site you many people who do state this about your party though. Right now it is being stated a lot about the Republican house inaction to the Sandy Relief Aid. Hopefully it will pass tomorrow, but many Republicans are grumbling and threatening they wont vote for it without spending cut offsets, others are threatening to lower the amount from 60 billion to I believe 9 billion.

 

"Pro-life" is still regulating a womens rights to choose for her own body, even to the point of allowing the women to die.

 

Gun control being every man, women and child should strap a gun to their hip for protection from everyone else who is carrying a gun.

 

Perhaps you can change "Self-Deportation" to "Encourage you to go home", is the same policy.

 

Try looking to reduce the deficit with a scalpel rather than a hatchet. Try looking for ways to cut in places that do not take pleasure in hurting the poor and middle class. Start listening to the people and not all your financial backers.. Try pulling the tons of waste out of the military spending budget, before hacking the programs to the poor. People are not opposed to reducing the deficit, they are opposed to how the Republicans want to cut the deficit.

 

Cant just try to wrap your policies up with fancy messaging..

[JoeBob]

Moose,

 

Do you teach Political Science, or Political Indoctrination? Your outlook is incredibly one-sided. It is a tad scary to think that you actually believe the twaddle you type.

 

The bright side is that intelligent college kids usually rebel against what they're taught once they get their grade...

 

 

"I can site you many people who do state this about your party though."

I believe you meant 'cite'.

[Eagledad]

>>"Pro-life" is still regulating a womens rights to choose for her own body, even to the point of allowing the women to die

[SR540Beaver]

Yeahhhh.....it isn't my party. I'm libertarian. I just understand their message and the constitution. Look, I'm a charitable person. But I like choosing my charitable actions. I don't like being forced by the government to hand over money to pay for things I wouldn't normally give my time or money to. And no, I'm not talking roads and bridges here. While I like to help people and appreciate people helping me, I understand that when push come to shove, I only have ME to rely on. I need to look out for me and I need to be prepared. That is taking personal responsibility. It isn't, I got mine or you're on your own. I'll gladly help you if I feel you need it and might even help you when I'm in dire straits, but I'm not going to count on someone else to take care of all my needs. That's just foolish. Republicans have earned my scorn just as much as Democrats have. I was no admirer or defender of GWB and the Republicans spending like drunken sailors as John McCain put it. They got the ball rolling, but Obama is taking it down the field in grand fashion. The path we are on is unsustainable. It is irresponsible. It is theft If I have to pick between the principles of the two major parties, I'll have to go with the Republicans over the Democrats when it comes to what is best for our country. They both need to be spanked, but the Republicans are at least halfway adult in their approach to our fiscal problems.