Oh those pesky assult rifles......

[JMHawkins]

In da mean time, if yeh can't wrap your brain around da notion that ... you're not a reserve police officer defendin' da America

 

Actually Beavah, we are. Of course it's not an offical title and some folks don't want to accept the responsibility, but we are all responsible for taking care of our selves, our families and our communities. This modern notion that everything should be left to the crednetialed experts while the unwashed masses sit around wating for somebody to save their bacon is a very un-American notion.

 

[JMHawkins]

What some folks seem to be suggestin' is that da average civilian first aider should be carryin' IV clot-buster drugs just in case da 12 year olds they're with in da woods suffer an M.I. That's neither prudent nor rational.

 

Actually, I think the more relevant First Aid analogy would be EpiPens. The law says the uncredentialled civilian should not be carrying around an EpiPen for use on someone else if that someone else should need it. Instead, the uncredentialled civilian is supposed to dial 911 and hope the experts get there in time to save the guy.

 

 

[Beavah]

Actually Beavah, we are

 

Actually, JMHawkins you're not.

 

Yeh see, in America we have this thing called democracy, eh? We elect public officials, we authorize da formation of local governments, we set da parameters for collective action. Authority comes not from any Tom, Dick, or Harry who decides it's his duty. It comes from a system of laws which allow da people to authorize actions on their behalf, includin' for da collective defense.

 

So despite my good intentions and my belief in da responsibility of citizens, I can't rush in and try to perform surgery when I think some fellow needs it. My fellow citizens have decided that I shouldn't.

 

If yeh wanna be a cop, get off your bum and go through da screening and training and internship period to become a cop. Live up to da standards and expectations your fellow citizens set for that kind of behavior, and stop makin' cockamamie excuses.

 

If yeh wanna be a soldier and defend your neighbors in times of natural disaster or whatnot, get off your duff and go join da Guard. Train with others, be responsible to a command structure authorized by your fellow citizens, like da colonial militias, and stop pretendin' that da intent of da Constitution or da history of da country was to authorize lone vigilantes. It never was.

 

If yeh wanna be a firearms hobbyist, be that, eh? Be careful. Have fun. But don't pretend you're somethin' that you're not.

 

 

Actually, I think the more relevant First Aid analogy would be EpiPens.

 

Actually, it would not.

 

Like AEDs, EpiPens are carefully designed to be relatively fool-proof. They're designed to be used by untrained individuals in mental and physical distress. Da limited dosage of medication and delivery method makes it highly unlikely that yeh can do harm to otherwise healthy individuals.

 

That's not true of some fellow with a firearm. It's far from fool-proof. It isn't designed to be used by someone in mental or physical distress, or in a situation for which they have little preparation or training. Da dosage is not limited, da delivery method makes it very possible to harm not just one but many healthy individuals.

 

That's why that analogy fails.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[RememberSchiff]

Never know what you might run into in the woods.

 

On a scout camping trip, "a couple of the older boys began exploring what appeared to be a wildlife trail leading into a wooded area about a half mile from camp. There they found about three dozen marijuana plants, some standing 5 or 6 feet tall. The boys documented the find with photos on a cellphone camera and headed back to camp."

 

"(Police) gave credit to the Scouts for reporting the field and to their leaders for assisting with arrests afterward. Jackson County Sheriff Mike Sharp recently awarded the troop a commendation, thanking it for contributing to the destruction of 40 mature marijuana plants worth about $40,000.

 

They did the right thing, said Dan Cummings, an Independence police captain who leads the Jackson County Drug Task Force."

 

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/18/3972861/scouts-do-a-good-deed-bust-up.html

 

Leaf identification sure has come a long way since I was a scout.

 

My $0.02,

[JoeBob]

Yep; and now this Scout Troop will be a target on their deep woods outings after the growers get out of jail.

 

Unless those leaders think that spending two to three years in prison will make better people of the drug offenders?

I'm sure that they will want to thank those Boy Scouts for turning them in.

 

Any reason here for a leader to be carrying concealed?

[Eagle732]

Beav,

I can't understand why you can't accept the fact that CCW is for personal protection and those choosing to do so are not trying to be a cop. One does not need to meet the standards of police or military training to defend ones self or family.

 

The right to self defense is not granted by the Second Amendment or the politicians. It is Natural or God given right.

 

And by the way I wouldn't hesitate for a second to perform an emergency cricothyrotomy.

 

[Beavah]

Defend themselves from what, Eagle732? Violent crime and violence in schools is at historical lows.

 

It's possible that your brain can be cooked by microwaves. I know of a few tales I can tell of incidents where folks were settin' up misaligned microwave links where line of sight got too close to da ground. But wearin' foil hats around is still pretty silly for most folks.

 

Lots of da conversation here ain't about defendin' themselves, eh? They're talkin' about defendin' their scouts on a campout, defendin' their neighbors, arming up and occupyin' a middle school or high school.

 

That's not a hobbyist who happens to defend himself in an extremely unusual situation. That's a wannabe cop puttin' himself in a position where he is more likely to be seekin' confrontation.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagle732]

People should be able to CCW where it's legal.

The G2SS sets the rules for Scouting, that should be followed too.

 

Just because someone believes that doesn't make them a "nutter", cop wanna be, a cowboy, paranoid, wanting to impress women, making a fashion statement, someone who wears a foil hat or any of the other derogatory things you have said.

[Beavah]

People should be able to CCW where it's legal.

The G2SS sets the rules for Scouting, that should be followed too.

 

Amen!

 

Yah, on that we're in complete agreement. Always have been.

 

Will yeh also agree that perhaps someone like this woman who believed in imminent social collapse and was livin' with a mentally unstable son who she regularly left unattended for days shouldn't have been sold da arsenal that was used in this tragedy? Would you, as a responsible firearm owner, have sold her that gear if yeh had known that? Would yeh have let her and her son carry on a scout trip?

 

That's da question at issue. What would each of us do, as responsible folks? Would we let the drunk drive as his "right", or take away his keys because right now he shouldn't be allowed to? And if we as responsible individuals would behave responsibly, then sometimes - not always - it's worth reflectin' that in da standards for the community. If we wouldn't give a drunk more drinks and let him drive off, then maybe an establishment with a liquor license shouldn't either. At least, it's a conversation that is OK to have.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle732]

OK Beav I'll play hypothetical scenario with you.

 

"Will yeh also agree that perhaps someone like this woman who believed in imminent social collapse and was livin' with a mentally unstable son who she regularly left unattended for days shouldn't have been sold da arsenal that was used in this tragedy?"

 

In my opinion 4 or 6 guns doesn't make an arsenal. And how would a gun dealer know the mental capacity of her son? You already have to state on the federal paperwork (ATF form 4473) if you, the purchaser has ever been diagnosed with mental illness which disqualifies you. And as far as someones beliefs on the fiscal soundness of our country, I for one believe we are heading for a severe recession. Does that disqualify me from owning firearms?

 

"Would you, as a responsible firearm owner, have sold her that gear if yeh had known that?"

No, I wouldn't, if I had known what her son would do. My understanding is that all her firearms were purchased through a licensed gun shop. ATF is all over that shop for sure and they'll be out of business if they violated any rules.

 

"Would yeh have let her and her son carry on a scout trip?"

Of course not. Did anyone suggest that?

However as 20 year old Venture crew member he could have received instruction in the use of a handgun and if he had been a Scout we could be discussing how BSA trains killers since he first learned how to shoot at summer camp. Should we shut down all BSA camp rifle ranges? After all we're training youth how to shoot guns and guns are bad!

 

"Would we let the drunk drive as his "right", or take away his keys because right now he shouldn't be allowed to?"

If we wouldn't give a drunk more drinks and let him drive off, then maybe an establishment with a liquor license shouldn't either. At least, it's a conversation that is OK to have."

 

Drunk driving is a violation of the law in every state. There's also laws against serving people who are already intoxicated when you have reason to believe they will drive. No one here has argued for NOT HAVING ANY FIREARMS REGULATION. This is a false argument. You do not have the Constitutional Right to be drunk.

 

For those of you who really want the facts then maybe you could start here with CT law:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-31st-editiion/States/atf-p-5300-5-connecticut-2010.pdf

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[Eagle732]

Here we go!

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/sen.-feinstein-suggests-national-buyback-of-guns/article/2516648#.UNcbgaVQkRU

 

How to become a felon with the stroke of a pen.

Unfortunately all my guns were lost in a tragic canoeing accident.

 

 

[AZMike]

Feinstein's proposal for a buyback would cost billions at a time when the U.S. government is already over its head in debt. Slate Magazine (hardly a conservative mouthpiece) examines the issue: http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/20/assault_rifle_stats_how_many_assault_rifles_are_there_in_america.html

 

It would also make millions of Americans who choose not to trust the government felons with the stroke of a pen. Is the level of civil unrest this will produce worth the cost, especially when the DOJ's own study showed that the last "assault weapons" ban was ineffective?

 

It notes that when Australia did this, it raised the money for the buyback through an income tax levy. I'm sure the American people will have no problem with giving up their weapons AND having their taxes raised to pay for it, particularly at a time when (as Beavah noted) the crime rate is actually falling.

 

If we want to reduce the rate of crime committed by those with severe behavioral disorders (which has a high impact on the national consciousness, but is probably a low percentage of the violent crime rate in the U.S.), one of the groups who need to be brought into the "National Conversation" that Obama says we need is the ACLU, which has to agree to withdraw its opposition to involuntary commitment of the mentally ill. (As well as Hollywood, probably.)

 

(Although in practice, when Obama says he wants a "dialogue" or a "conversation" with the opposition, he just means he wants to hector them, to talk about himself a lot, and then they have to do what he says.)

 

There should not be so many people with severe mental disorders homeless on the street. If your disorder makes you resist treatment, there should be a court-mandated process in place to make it easier to commit someone against their will. Parents who have to deal with severely disordered and violent kids should have a procedure to commit them, and there have to be facilities to do that and get them treatment, and to enforce medication if necessary. The ACLU has uniformly fought against any modifications to the current uncaring laws.

 

Unless Obama can get his contributors in the ACLU to bend to his will on this issue, and probably to get his Hollywood financiers to cut back on the glorification of gunplay, there won't be any kind of "dialog" or "conversation" worth having.

[Eagle732]

Well there will be dialog but it will be one sided.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK Eagle732.

 

If yeh wouldn't do those things, and yeh support community laws which would restrict others from doin' things you would not do, then what's wrong with havin' that conversation?

 

Is there somethin' wrong within da firearms community from choosing not to sell to a woman talkin' about imminent economic collapse and lookin' stressed? Forget the law for a moment. What's da right thing to do?

 

Is there somethin' wrong with notion that your firearms and ammunition should be secured at home if yeh have kids or not fully functional adults in da house? What's wrong with another person on da range sayin' "Linda, are you securin' those guns at home? You've been havin' trouble with that son of yours, and it's tough, I know. Yeh can store stuff over at my place if yeh need to."

 

As for ATF, yeh do realize that their budget has been cut to the bone, and there has been no ATF director for six years because of Senate filibusters, eh? How is that responsible? Where are da responsible gun owners sayin' "wait a minute, we want to be good members of the community, not just perceived as whacko obstructionists!"

 

Right now, in da face of 20 first graders shot to death, da firearm community is comin' off lookin' like a bunch of whacko obstructionists. That's when da rest of our fellow citizens start to propose notions like "We can't work with these people, let's just buyback all their guns and melt 'em." If we don't want that outcome, then we have to start lookin' and actin' like responsible partners and fellow citizens who care more about those 20 first graders than about ourselves.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

AZMike, if you're goin' to address da mental health issue, let's be honest about all of it, eh?

 

Mental health funding has a small lobbying constituency, so it's an easy program to cut. Most of da mental health cases out homeless on the street were a result of funding cuts across many states, led by Republican legislatures or governors in most cases. Yah, there is some ACLU opposition to involuntary commitments, but a lot of that is justified, eh? Yeh don't really want da government bein' able to lock people up who haven't committed a crime very easily, do yeh? Da system is workable, but it's slow and there are too many hurdles or too many places where folks without sound legal advice can just get lost.

 

We should address mental health nationwide, eh? I reckon it would be great if both parties tackle that together, with adequate funding and a fair but streamlined system. Most lobbying groups try to build partnerships like that across political divides in order to be effective. It would be refreshing if da NRA reached out to da ACLU and the mental health and education lobbies and tried to build a national political consensus on this vital issue. That might accomplish somethin'.

 

So when are yeh calling up da organization and demandin' it behave like a more responsible, more politically savvy lobbyin' group?

 

Beavah