LDS Church Changes Stance on Gays

[Horizon]

It is not a myth - it is semantics.

 

"white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children" perhaps could be re-written to be "avowed heterosexual males are the most likely to molest children." The issue is that married men, who have reproduced, and who might have a regular heterosexual relationship with their spouse can ALSO be a molester.

 

The reason this is brought up is that it is not the flaming gay guy who is the risk factor - it is the one you never suspected due to their public persona.

[Brewmeister]

Yes, I agree. You can't judge people by their race or what they purport to be. My point exactly. Thank you.

[acco40]

Disallowing gay adults helps reduce the opportunity for inappropriate behavior. Yes, it might hurt your feelings but that is the price many (most?) parents are willing to pay.

 

That's the key right there. The above is what many feel but that is not why the BSA publicly states they do not allow avowed gay leaders.

 

I feel the "gay" issue should be treated just like the "smoking" issue. Don't exhibit that behavior in front of the scouts.

[Eagle732]

And you're going to be the first person to ask a gay adult leader to leave when he give his significant other a kiss during a camping trip?

 

It's the Camel's Nose.

[Adam S]

Brewmeister, if they truly counted Hispanic population as white in that study, then your view makes sense to me. As someone else stated the point I was trying to reinforce is, it is whom you least expect.

 

As to whether the molesters are heterosexual or not, we only know what they identify as when they sign an application. It is not a matter of semantics when you consider that statistics have to be built on what they claim before they commit the crime so you can have an index of suspicion.

 

But as you said; whatever they say they are, they are most certainly evil.

 

[moosetracker]

I agree with Adam S. Your pedophile will not be your openly gay person. It will be the heterosexual, married, father of 2 who is so perfectly normal you would never suspect them.

 

Your pedophile is neither heterosexual or homosexual, it is not the sex act that arouses them. It is the control & power over someone smaller and weaker and innocent.

 

The girl scouts might not allow 18 and 21 year old boys off with young girls on a camping trip, but I would be surprised if they allowed two 40 year old men off with young girls on a camping trip either. Boy scouts woule not allow that in a venturing crew, neither would they allow two females off camping with a bunch of boys. You have to have one adult of the same gender along, or one adult of each gender in a mix group of boys and girls. Doesn't have anything to do with age.

 

The age thing (although with BS it would be that someone must be 21 or older) has to do with the fact that youth can be more daring and risk takers, an older adult will take more caution with determining the risk factor. (or at least that is the hope, some people never grow up.)

 

Exclusion of homosexuals has nothing to do with trying to reduce pedophiles and everything to do with conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse then any other sin. Unfortunately for religions they are even loosing this war with their own flock. 49% of Catholics are for same-sex marriage, even in evangelicals churches the young people 18 to 29 are also changing their attitudes (I think for young evangelicals it's about 44%) But they do have a longer way to go with the old fogies of that church.And that is for the controversy over Same-sex marraige not the debate over should homosexuals be treated like lepords in our society. Yes, the war is even being lost within the church walls. Add to that the scout units that don't put too much attention on religion in scouting which is more tracking with the countries attitude of 53% for same-sex marriage, 46% against, 2% no opinion (again no poll on the question of if homosexuals should be shunned by the public.).. The best thing to do is allow units their own choice on the issue, then people can choose not to go to units that don't meet their values.

[Eagledad]

>>Exclusion of homosexuals has nothing to do with trying to reduce pedophiles and everything to do with conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse than any other sin.

[Brewmeister]

Both Adam and Moose were doing just fine until this line:

 

>>Your pedophile will not be your openly gay person.

 

It doesn't take much searching to find news about gay pedophiles.

 

The reason "whites" are the majority of child abuse cases in the US is that whites are the majority of the population.

 

The reason that avowed "heterosexuals" are the majority of child abuse cases is that "heterosexuals" are the vast majority of the population.

 

But among equal NUMBERS of different races and avowed sexual orientations, you will find equal NUMBERS of pedophiles disbursed.

 

Got it?

 

You really need to get past this idea that someone is more likely to be a pedophile because he is white and claims to be hetero. That attitude is the reason I have had a mom tell me, "I won't put my boy in scouts because what kind of man wants to spend his time in the woods with little boys?"

 

It is also incredibly dangerous to simply assume, "Nah, he can't be a pedophile because he's openly gay."

 

Also, part of the reason that pedophiles claim to be heterosexual is that it gives them cover--as Moose correctly points out, the idea is not to raise suspicion. As the gay lifestyle becomes more accepted, I wonder if what pedophiles claim to be will change?

[Huzzar]

>> The girl scouts might not allow 18 and 21 year old boys off with young girls on a camping trip, but I would be surprised if they allowed two 40 year old men off with young girls on a camping trip either. Boy scouts woule not allow that in a venturing crew, neither would they allow two females off camping with a bunch of boys. You have to have one adult of the same gender along, or one adult of each gender in a mix group of boys and girls. Doesn't have anything to do with age.

[moosetracker]

 

Also, part of the reason that pedophiles claim to be heterosexual is that it gives them cover--as Moose correctly points out, the idea is not to raise suspicion. As the gay lifestyle becomes more accepted, I wonder if what pedophiles claim to be will change?

 

 

That was basically my point. Not that a pedophile never could ever be gay. Just that if a peophile wants to blend in and not draw attention to himself, and be more trusted he will not be your openly avowed gay. All BSA rule is about is not accepting the openly avowed gays. This will not be your pedophile..

 

Huzzar - Bingo, it is not.. If that is your concern, then add to the youth protection that 2 openly avowed gay men can't be the only adult supervision on an all boy troop outing.. But what about 2 openly avowed gay women with the boys? Or 2 openly avowed gay men with the girls? or a mix of 1 heterosexual and 1 gay person? Or 3 or 4 adults some heterosexual some homosexual some men, some women? Or why can't a homosexual be a tiger den mom, or a Committee Chair, or the Troop treasurer who never goes camping at all? What about a homosexual working at District level in Finance or event organizing or with Popcorn or Friends of Scouting?

 

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Adam S]

Brewmeister, I don't think I stated, or even implied, that openly gay people could not be pedophiles. The point I was making was that it could be anyone.

[Adam S]

Does GSUSA have a rule or is it decided by their councils? I have heard of several male Troop leaders, but I also personally know someone who was denied being a leader for his daughters troop specificaly because he is a man.

 

 

[Huzzar]

Why should the BSA or GSUSA go through those hoops when the simplest course of action is to say "no" up front? Venturing already has issues trying to get female leaders on trips. Are we now expected to take a head count of the sex and sexuality of every adult and youth so we can plan accordingly? Have two or more adults joined at the hip on every trip?

 

For you who pooh pooh the notion that adult gays can't corrupt straight boys, I give you Gerry Studds. Note in the deposition from the 17 year old boy he says he is heterosexual and didn't engage in any homosexual behavior before Gerry's caring instruction. Gerry ain't a pedophile he's just a gay guy that abused a position of power.

 

sweetness-light.com/archive/excerpts-from-the-congressional-report-on-gerry-studds#.UMoRt6xCOSo

 

Note also that Gerry said sex with an of-age kid was nobody else's business and the Honorable Congressman was cheered by the left for his stand.

[Brewmeister]

Adam, sorry, yes, you did not state that, I was not clear.

 

The GSUSA does not have a prohibition but, as a father who has had a daughter in girl scouts for many years, I can tell you that men have a tough row to hoe as leaders and volunteers. Then again, the GSUSA doesn't make headlines for abuse stories either.

 

 

[moosetracker]

It isn't any harder then looking at your adult leadership for a venture crew outing now and saying "hey, we have two females, we need a male".. Or at a troop and saying the only adults signed up are an 18 yo & 20 yo we need someone over 21 in adult leadership. If you only have one homosexual adult in your group, there will never be two in your group.. Right now, a registered Adult and a parent can take the troop on an outing.. Whose to say that unregistered parent is not a open homosexual. No one says you can't.

 

The answer to why it would be a solution even if it causes such "trouble" is as you say.. Venturing already has issues trying to get female leaders on trips. If you have a problem with "going to all that trouble", then be a unit that doesn't accept the openly gay person as the Scoutmaster or ASM, but allow them to be on the committee, or just say your religion doesn't accept homosexual adult leaders, but the troop down the street does.

 

Why because "YOU" don't want to go to that trouble, should you decide that "I" also can not go to that trouble?

 

For your one example. In a country of millions, you can always find an example of one or two to prove any point you wish to make. The thing is to look at the norm. I can point you in the direction of many, many, many examples of children being raised by homosexual parents that turn out just fine, although perhaps liberal minded and very accepting of the gay community.. Sure there are a few that become homosexual themselves, but not more then normal. Those that do, do not have to fear their families reaction to it.

 

Homosexual parents want their children to be happy. Therefore they hope they will fit into the mainstream, but if not they can help their child accept who they are, whether that be homosexual, a nerd, having physical limitations whatever.. To wish their children to be homosexual is like you being a cripple and hoping your children are born cripples also. Or being deaf and hoping your children will be deaf also.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)