LDS Church Changes Stance on Gays

[Eagle732]

I've got plenty of adult help in my unit and yes, we do pick and choose who becomes and adult leader. In fact I choose the ASMs myself based on who I think will be a positive role model for our Scouts, who can work well with boys, and who is willing to let the boys run their program. Note that positive role model is the first priority.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>> since teaching or discussing sexuality has noting to do with the scout craft or scout values (at least half the scouting community interprets as not everyone sees a moral sin in homosexuality.).

[Horizon]

Eagledad:

 

Once you get away from the San Francisco gay pride parade, they aren't about sex. The Marines were at the Pasadena parade, recruiting. Marines and Sailors marched in the San Diego pride parade. Assuming that you don't frequent gay pride parades, your view of them is colored by the media you choose to watch.

 

As for the kiss in - a kiss is not sex.However, gay rights groups have long done their kiss ins as a form of being open about who they love. It is a means of coming out of the closet and making your perceived opponent uncomfortable. The gay and lesbian club at my university did the same at a few fraternity parties back in the 80s.

 

------------

 

LDS altering their public stance is interesting, and could be another step towards local control. It will be interesting to watch. We also have the Supreme Court taking on the Defense of Marriage Act and California's Proposition 8. That is going to make for an interesting Court season as well. Expect more focus on this issue as we lead into the Court testimony, followed by the announcement.

[Adam S]

"Bluntly put, I would say that permitting certain adults to volunteer in a nonprofit organization (for youth) that does not need, nor require, nor solicit for their help has nothing to do with scouts or scouting."

 

I find it funny that you point out that the organization you, an adult volunteer for is for youth as it is some kind of issue for homosexual adults. Maybe you are insinuating they are pedophiles, you do know that white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children, right?

 

As to not needing their help, I am in a Council woefully underserved in the Commissioner department, JTE requires a certain amount of Unit Visits, we REQUIRE volunteers. I am in a district that could easily double our volunteers and still have plenty of work for everyone, we NEED volunteers. My Troop and Pack are doing well with volunteers but the majority of units in our area have people serving double and triple duty, they actively SOLICIT for volunteers.

 

 

 

I don't know about you folks, but we have some scouts with gay parents, they are good people and doing a better job raising their kids then many straight parents (Have you seen snooki, Lindsay Lohan, Honey booboo???) They are not flambouyant, or in-your-face about their sexuality. They just want to live there life like any other person and raise there children in a loving home. I am not denying or downplaying the highly visible flambouyant/vulgar homosexual contingent. But there are equally offensive Hetro's involved in child porn, and swinging and other unsavory activities. Shouldn't we be judging people on their own individual merits? Not the actions of people they never met?

 

Eagle732, you said "I've got plenty of adult help in my unit and yes, we do pick and choose who becomes and adult leader. In fact I choose the ASMs myself based on who I think will be a positive role model for our Scouts, who can work well with boys, and who is willing to let the boys run their program. Note that positive role model is the first priority." I just want to clarify, your saying that regardless of gender, sexual preferemce and everything else that you place being a role model first? If I understood you correctly, your a stand up guy! I know a few units that absolutely diallow any female leadership, or they maintain a short roster of "buddies" as their SM/ASM staff.

 

 

Eagledad said "Not about sex? Just visit any local gay pride parade and you will see the main theme is clearly sex. It is not a parade for small children. And if it isnt about sex, then why did the gay community chose to do a Kiss-in to protest at Chick Fil As? The gay community does it to themselves, they publically make it all about sex. The reputation of their immoral behavior precedes gay scout leaders even if they dont bring directly up the subject."

 

I agree, when you walk in to a scouting event sexuality should fall away, I don't want to hear about a scouts girlfriend, or a scoutmasters wife or husband (we have female Scoutmasters) we are there with an agenda and sex is not on the list... straight or gay! You are correct some of the gay pride stuff is overtly sexual and I agree it is tasteless and vulgar but I really have to take a polar opposite view of the Chik-Fil-A protest, a kiss is a classic sign of love, you will always have the tasteless who go too far, but I am of the opinion that I would rather see tasteless sex then senseless hate. I am much for concerned about the violence my kids see on television or the movies then if they see someone having sex. Let's face it, if you hope for your child to have kids someday they are going to have sex.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Once you get away from the San Francisco gay pride parade, they aren't about sex.>Let's face it, if you hope for your child to have kids someday they are going to have sex.

[Eagle732]

Adam, I have no problem with female scout leaders. In fact I answer to a female CC. I've known some very good female leaders. Outdoors skills and knowledge are the most important skills qualities as far as I'm concerned. I kid when I say that to be considered as an ASM in my troop you have to be able to hike farther than the SM can (I thru-hiked the AT last year).

 

I guess for me it goes back to 30 years in a large metro fire department. When your life depends on another, and their life depends on you, you quickly realize that race, orientation, sex, whatever, doesn't matter. What does matter is that you can do your job!

[howarthe]

Here is another quote from the new LDS website mormonsandgays.org "Love is not to say acceptance or endorsement, but it is to say inclusion and not ostracism. We want to be with you and work together." -Elder Christopherson, Quorum of the 12 Apostles

 

I believe he is primarily referring to celibate homosexual Mormons who wish to remain active in their wards and fulfill callings, but I believe it could also be applied to "avowed homosexuals" who want to fulfill leadership roles in their son's pack or troop.

 

I want this policy changed for two reasons. (1) I don't want anyone from Council telling me that I have to expel a leader that I just recruited because she is gay. I doubt very much that this will ever happen. I live in a rather conservative rural community, and I'm unaware of any gay couples living here, but even so, I don't like this hanging over me all the time.

 

(2) I want my son's best friend to join the pack. His father won't let him because he is liberal, and he hates this policy. This is about the dumbest reason I can think of to be missing out on building pinewood derby cars, but if he really thinks that we are going to teach his son bigotry, then I guess I can understand his position.

 

You can pick whoever you want to be your assistant scoutmaster, just leave me and my den leaders alone. Thanks.

 

"Love is not to say acceptance or endorsement, but it is to say inclusion and not ostracism. We want to be with you and work together."

[Brewmeister]

Adam opines: >>...you do know that white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children, right?

 

Wow, nice racist toss-in there...it just so happens that pedophilia rates pretty much match the population demographics...making most races equally "likely" to have these criminals among them.

 

I also must've missed the part in this whole discussion where males were having heterosexual intercourse with boys...

[Adam S]

Eagle732, a brother firefighter, now I know why I like you Nice job through hiking the AT

[Adam S]

Brewmeister said

"Adam opines: >>...you do know that white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children, right?

Wow, nice racist toss-in there...it just so happens that pedophilia rates pretty much match the population demographics...making most races equally "likely" to have these criminals among them.

I also must've missed the part in this whole discussion where males were having heterosexual intercourse with boys..."

 

 

First, I thought it would be an obvious inference, but the point I was making was that the exclusion of homosexuals as leaders because of a possible belief that they would be a greater risk for the scouts is incorrect. Let me make clear, I did not share an opinion, I stated fact, some data points and links are below. I do apologize if that did not directly contribute to the conversation like I thought it would.

Second, that was not a racist toss-in, it was a fact, cut and dry. I have backed it up with relevant citations, I would be interested in seeing the literature backing your claim that pedophilia rates matching the population demographics. While it seems logical from a certain perspective, it does not seem to be reflected in the data.

As to "males were having heterosexual intercourse with boys" Maybe you need to take YPT again It is commonly documented that most men who molest boys identify as heterosexual, and have relationships/sex with adult women not adult men.

 

 

Nearly all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male (96%).

Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement, 7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Justice

While nearly 70% of those serving time for violent crimes against children were white, whites accounted for 40% of those imprisoned for violent crimes against adults.

- -BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

Nearly two-thirds of convicted child molesters and/or offenders were or had been married. (This statistic was gathered before gay marriage was legal, and implies the molester was hetero sexual)

Kurt Freund and Robin J. Watson, The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: An exploratory study (1992)

 

Ryan C. W. Hall, M.D., and Richard C. W. Hall, M.D., P.A., A Profile of Pedophilia: Definition, Characteristics of Offenders (2009)

http://www.cpiu.us/statistics-2/

http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

 

 

[Huzzar]

>> It is commonly documented that most men who molest boys identify as heterosexual, and have relationships/sex with adult women not adult men.

[howarthe]

Huzza is absolutely 100% wrong. Disallowing avowed homosexuals to be members of the Boy Scouts of America does not reduce the opportunity for, nor the actual occurance of, inappropriate behavior in any way or at any time.

 

It has robbed several scouts of their very decent leaders. It is robbing the NESA of potential alumni volunteers. It sacrificing plenty of corporate donations, but most importantly it is contributing to an attitude among scouts that it's ok to exclude homosexual youth from their circle of friends, or the prom, or the homecoming court, or the football team, or any other group that they belong to.

[Brewmeister]

Adam, first of all your comment about race is totally irrelevant as I mentioned. But since you bring it up, your citation is correct regarding whites in the DOJ study, which included Hispanics in the definition of white, amounted to about 70%.

 

According to US HHS data: http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm, which separates Whites and Hispanics, rates of "child abuse" by whites was 51%. Add 15% Hispanic and it's reasonably close to the DOJ figures.

 

Wow, that's a huge percentage....except that Whites are 78% of the U.S. population: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

 

So compared to demographics...well you can draw your own conclusions.

 

As to the rest, my point is that for you to claim most molesters are heterosexual (in the context of this discussion about the BSA) is wrong. I don't care what they claim to be, or even whether they were married. The point is when a man perpetrates sodomy on a young boy, that man is NOT heterosexual, despite what he may claim to be or the life he may ostensibly lead. He is something else and it's evil.(This message has been edited by brewmeister)

[Huzzar]

>>Huzza is absolutely 100% wrong. Disallowing avowed homosexuals to be members of the Boy Scouts of America does not reduce the opportunity for, nor the actual occurance of, inappropriate behavior in any way or at any time.

[Brewmeister]

I do not agree with Huzzar and want to be clear in my comments.

 

The point is that what a person CLAIMS to be is irrelevant because pedophiles and deviants are liars. It is what that person actually IS and what that person is capable of DOING that we should be concerned about. That is a much more difficult nut to crack but it is what our current YPT practices and training hope to do. Deviants will naturally look for easy opportunity, and the best prevention is therefore reduce that opportunity through proactive youth protection practices because we cannot know what is in a man's heart.

 

But again, to claim that "white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children" is inaccurate as I proved above. Unfortunately, though, it is a prevalent myth.