Chief exec of UK Scout Association: Time for a Promise that atheists can keep

[Cambridgeskip]

Thought I'd weigh in here from across the pond.

 

First was BP gay? Don't know and don't frankly care. It matters not a jot to me.

 

As for the original post. Frankly this is not before time. It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that. A run of the eyes over Escouts (UK equivalent of this forum) shows that it is largely supported as well.

 

I look forward to us being entirely inclusive and not to have to try and defend a policy that I find it impossible to defend.

[Cambridgeskip]

Thought I'd weigh in here from across the pond.

 

First was BP gay? Don't know and don't frankly care. It matters not a jot to me.

 

As for the original post. Frankly this is not before time. It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that. A run of the eyes over Escouts (UK equivalent of this forum) shows that it is largely supported as well.

 

I look forward to us being entirely inclusive and not to have to try and defend a policy that I find it impossible to defend.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

qwazse writes, demonstrating he doesn't understand analogies:

 

Sorry Meryl,

 

I have never been cussed at by Jews when I've brought up matters of Palestine.

Never by Catholics when I've brought up the counter-reformation.

Women? Well, two out of three ain't bad. And, I probably deserved it anyway.

 

WHOOSH is the sound of the point going over your head.

 

And the apathy towards someone seeking to express religious sentiment often is framed in profanity.

 

Here you seem to think you used the word "antipathy", but you didn't.

 

Moreover when you reference the Abyss, I know you don't really mean it. So spare the hollow vanities.

 

I was referencing your bigotry towards atheists as a class, but you missed my point. It went over your head.

 

Of course it's not your fault that suit-weary educators want to steer cleaned clear of secular (per S947's reference) improprieties. Even when within legal rights, the cost of defending a "walk up to, but not over, the fence" becomes prohibative.

 

And here you probably meant "prohibitive" . . . and having a legal right to something is not a bar to public criticism.

 

But your insisting that their "invisible muzzle" is not your problem serves to affirm that the "constraints of Oath and Law" upon your felllows need not be a concern of scouters.

 

I only pointed out that, whoever got the idea that a public teacher can't arrange a baccalaureate service on her own time, doesn't know the law; there is no legal "muzzle", it's all in someone's distorted idea of what the law IS. Like I said, ignorance is its own punishment.

 

I can't do anything for this nameless teacher's ignorance of the law, since I have no idea who she is; you, however, are in a position to set her straight.

 

So have you? Or is that "not your problem"?

[Brewmeister]

The Anti-Theist's Handbook

 

Chapter 1: How best to respond to the "insensitivity" of publicly displayed religious symbols by bastardizing those symbols in your own counter-displays.

 

Chapter 2: How to demonstrate tolerance and respect for a diversity of beliefs by mocking those who believe in an "invisible magic man living in the clouds."

 

Chapter 3: How to use spelling and grammar errors to undercut valid points made against your positions.

 

Chapter 4:......

 

[CalicoPenn]

I've noticed lately this trend in society for bigots who have been justly called on their bigotry to try to hid behind the tolerance shield by claiming the folks calling them bigots are intolerant of their bigotry. There was a time when a bigot attemting to demand tolerance of their bigotry would be sneered at by polite society.

[Sentinel947]

I dunno if it's a trend in society, but certainly is in this forum.

 

(edited for a grammatical error)(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

[scoutingagain]

"a bigot attemting to demand tolerance of their bigotry"

 

But what if one is a bigot of bigots attempting to demand tolerance of their bigotry toward bigots?

 

SA

[ghjim]

Brewmeister,

 

I have no objection to religious public displays. Does it have to be on government property? Property owned by the people for all the people? Can it be done on church lawns, or businesses that choose to display religious symbols?

[fred8033]

I've noticed that the cheap and intellectually lazy way to argue is to call someone else a bigot. I'm not perfect, but I try to avoid that threshold. Hard not to as though as you get upset with the opposition being unreasonable. IMHO, credibility is lost by the 1st person to accuse the other of being a bigot. Same as swearing, insulting or physical violence ... you lose.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I believe in pointing out bigoted behavior, such as stereotyping entire groups of people, as bigotry.

[qwazse]

No, you believe in cussing with impunity. So do many nominally religious that cuss at atheists or anyone else whose lives have been imposed upon because of their rantings.

 

It might be chalked up as antipathy, but really it's the plain old: "I got mine. I don't care if something is important to them." -- with a little profanity ordered up in a wasted attempt to elevate yourself above whatever wreckage lies around us.

 

... set her straight. ... So have you? Or is that "not your problem"?

 

It's nice that you care. Well I guess I won't know if my reminding her of her 1st amendment rights will have helped until it's time for next year's graduation festivities.

[Peregrinator]

It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that.

 

Wouldn't an atheist making a promise of duty to God be lying? What did Baden-Powell think about scouts who lied?* Why should they be rewarded for their dishonesty by having their very own promise?

 

*"If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again--he loses his life."

[qwazse]

Yep, Pere. I believe that an accommodation of this sort would require removing "duty to God" and "reverent" from oath and law. It would be an admission that religion is not a necessary foundation for one's character.

 

That's precisely what many folks believe, and they aren't all atheists.

 

Lots of scouters would not be willing to concede that view. On the other hand, my church is more accommodating to atheists than the BSA is.

[Peregrinator]

I believe in pointing out bigoted behavior, such as stereotyping entire groups of people, as bigotry.

 

Bigotry is characterized by hatred and intolerance, and stereotyping doesn't necessarily measure up to that standard. Furthermore, you use the word often enough that it's become a bromide.

[packsaddle]

"Wouldn't an atheist making a promise of duty to God be lying?"

Peregrinator, are Buddhist scouts liars?